Too easy to mess up. It´s also not consistent with for example how Lab total is used, as there is no Lab dieroll, making the score the total.
And V/F really could use having the same terminology used consistently as well. Some say + to spell, others + to spell roll(which potentially makes Cyclic magic not affect Fatigueless Sponts at all, which is just strange) etc... LLSM for example doesn´t actually specify. And is Puissant Art really supposed to be added post-division with Spontaneous?(it says "+3 to all Totals" after all) Confidence suddenly also becomes very good for Sponts.
I see now that you intended a general, sweeping change. I didn't get that from your first post on this thread, though.
Indeed the distinction between Casting Score and Casting Total is not carried over to Lab Totals. I do not see a problem with that yet, since Lab Total is independently defined, and dividing Lab Totals is limited to a few flaws like Deficient Form/Technique. (EDIT: There are also Laboratory flaws like Missing Ingredients from Covenants p.116 halving Lab Totals.)
Each of these virtues works indeed differently - and I don't find a system covering them all.
As I understand the Cyclic Magic virtue, under the right conditions it adds its bonus to spell rolls and Lab Totals, and that is all it does. It does hence not affect fatigueless sponts.
Lifelinked Spontaneous Magic virtue explicitly works only with fatiguing spontaneuos spells.
Puissant Art has been errataed to "You add 3 to the value of one Art whenever you use it." So the problematic "+3 to all Totals" is gone for good there.
Cyclic Magic (Positive) (ArM5, page 41) uses the "bonus to all spell rolls" formulation. But Cyclic Magic (Negative) (ArM5, page 52) uses the "penalty to all ... Casting Totals" formulation.
So Cyclic Magic (Positive) doesn't strictly seem to affect non-Fatiguing Spontaneous Casting, but Cyclic Magic (Negative) does. And Cyclic Magic (Negative) cripples both sorts of Spontaneous Magic, if its penalty is applied to the Casting Total after the division.
Perhaps the two Cyclic Magics are meant to be different, but it doesn't seem very clear why they should be.
As far as I can see, the cleanest read of the Talisman Attunement rules is that the bonus applies to the Casting Total, but applies before the division in the case of Spontaneous magic (i.e. it is really a bonus to the Casting Score).
If you apply the bonus after division, a Talisman Attunement bonus of +4 to the Casting Total is equivalent to a +20 bonus to the Casting Score (for non-Fatiguing Spontaneous Magic). If the Talisman Attunement bonus was really meant to be such a huge bonus to Spontaneous Magic, particularly non-Fatiguing Spontaneous magic, I think that the rules would have said so explicitly, as that would then be almost the main reason to have a Talisman. I don't think that the main reason to have a Talisman would have been given in such an ambigious manner.
Shouldn't one in that case errata p.98 "They apply to totals to cast Ritual, Formulaic and Spontaneous magic, ..." to "They apply to scores to cast Ritual, Formulaic and Spontaneous magic, ..."? That would make your 'cleanest read' obvious.
Of course. What i meant was that it is quite ambigious about wether the normal "/2" is used or not and if so, where and how.
I can make an excellent case for being able to cast unmodified Casting Score+20 spells using LLSM, loosing at most 4 and very probably fewer Fatigue levels(because as written, it sounds like the usual divide by 2 isn´t used with LLSM at all (as this would mean being able to cast much more powerful spells with Sponts, i rather doubt this was truly the intent)).
Personally i´ve always run it as being able to add 5s to the casting score after die roll but before dividing.
Indeed. I always run them simply as applying before dividing, and always. They´re such great and thematic V/F that it would be sad(and silly) if the Virtue was worse than the Flaw, there´s just no reason for them to differ in how they work.
Good to hear.
A talisman whose bonuses applied after dividing might be a cool little house branch or mystery to write up.
Maybe for a future book including Diedne ?
Since it refers to spell levels, I think it is intended to add 5 after the Casting Total is divided by 2. LLSM is a Major Virtue, compare to Life Boost which offers a similar bonus to formulaic spells at the cost of a Minor Virtue.
He did. They should specify Casting Score. I didn't notice that during development, sorry. There are a few places in ArM5, particularly the early books, where terminology is not used as consistently as it should be.
So, is there anywhere apart from Talisman Attunements and Cyclic Magic that needs attention? Might as well get them all at once.
Lifelinked Spontaneous magic needs clarification, as noted by how Xavi and Tugdual have read it differently(i´m with Xavi´s version here but that´s based on what i consider reasonable, not on a clear ruling from RAW).
LLSM text as it is, makes it uncertain if "divide by 2" is part of it at all, and if it is, where it happens.
It is also uncertain if the 5s added is before or after dividing.
Special Circumstances also specify rolls, does that mean it does not affect Fatigueless Sponts? (personally i think it should apply, before dividing)
Cant find any more right now at least...
Yes well, if that is how it is, then someone with a casting score of 2 can cast level 20-25 spells without taking damage... And someone with score 20 can Spont level 30-35 spells. Ie., she can cast higher level spells with Spontaneous than with Formulaic even without going overboard, both at low and high levels. While i can totally understand your interpretation, nothing that says it´s wrong, i cant say that it looks reasonable.
Even if you include the bonus when dividing, LLSM is still far more valuable than Life Boost.
The text seems quite clear, and we ruled as such, but since there's this problem with the corebook, I prefer to be sure...
To quote myself back in the andorra forum:
After dividing, as Tugdual says. Adding 16-20 levels renders the magus unconscious, and it takes 2 hours to regain consciousness. To recover to the point of being able to do that again takes a little under four hours of rest. Clarified, although I really can't see how to read the existing text any other way. Why would you compare the total before division to the spell level?
Keen Vision (ArM5, p44) should probably clarify that it doesn't apply (I think) to rolls involving Sight Range (i.e. it doesn't apply to spell casting; c.f. Long Winded, page 45).
Method Caster (ArM5, p46) should specify that the +3 bonus is to the Casting Score (rarely makes a difference, but it is possible that an unanticipated Virtue or Flaw might change how the Formulaic Casting Total is calculated).
Quiet Magic (ArM5 p48) doesn't specify what the -5 penalty is applied to. Reading the material on varying words and gestures (ArM5, page 83) it is clear that the intent is that it is a penalty to the Casting Score.
Ways of the (Land) (ArM5 p50). Unclear if this +3 bonus is meant to apply to spell casting. I think it is, but unsure. If it is meant to apply to Spell Casting then should specify that it is a bonus to Casting Score when applied to spell casting.
Afflicted Tongue (ArM5, p51). When spell casting this should translate to a -2 penalty to the Casting Score.
No Hands (ArM5, p56). Should specify it is a -5 penalty to the Casting Score.
Weak Spontaneous Magic (ArM5, p61). Needs re-wording, as it literally tells you to divide the Casting Total by 5 (so a net effect of dividing the Casting Score by either 10 or 25 depending on which flavour of Spont. you are using). The actual intent seems to be that you must always cast Spontaneous magic using the non-Fatiguing Spont. formula, with the additional proviso that you can botch in stressful circumstances.
Also note that the way that Weak Spontaneous Magic is written there seems to be a subtle implication that there might be a possibility of botching non-Fatiguing Spont. casting when in stressful circumstances. However, there is never any chance of botching non-Fatiguing Spont. spells (no matter how stressful the situation) because there is no die thrown on which to botch. The sections on Using Vis and Fast Casting (ArM5, p82-83) also seem to carry this implication, whereas botching should only be a risk with Fatiguing Sponts. (absent something like Weak Spontaneous Magic). This doesn't need any errata though, it's just an oddity.
Because of how the Virtue describes using it, as if it was a separate way of casting.
It´s surprisingly easy to read the sentence "Roll to cast a fat. spont. spell." as a running description of using the virtue rather than as a definition of what formula to use.
I did it myself both first and second time i read it, but realised the error as soon as i tested the maths.
Sure, but the character just cast a spell that many lesser to middling magi is unable to cast at all outside of their good Arts, even as Formulaic spells.
At low level:
Sta 2 + Te 1 + Fo 1 + Aura 1 =5 + Dieroll 5 => Max level Formulaic spell cast 20.
(Sta 2 + Te 1 + Fo 1 + Aura 1 =5 + Dieroll 5 /2)=5 Max level Fatigeuing Spont spell cast without taking damage 25.
Combined with Large or Giant Blooded, the above goes up to level 30.
With my preferred interpretation the above numbers would be 15 and 20 instead. At least not above what is possible with Formulaic casting.
At mid levels:
Sta 4 + Te 8 + Fo 8 + Aura 5 = 25 + Dieroll 5 => Max level Formulaic spell cast 40 (and the R&D time for a level 40 spell with a 25+MT Lab total, well that´s going to require some serious assistance).
(Sta 4 + Te 8 + Fo 8 + Aura 5 =25 + Dieroll 5)/2 =15 Max level Fatigeuing Spont spell cast without taking damage 35.
Combined with Large or Giant Blooded, the above goes up to level 40.
With my preferred interpretation the above numbers would be 25 and 30 instead. Below Formulaic casting.
Who cares if the character is knocked out for a few hours when she instead can ignore many seasons of not needing to develop Formulaic spells? LLSM+Large becomes the ultimate toolbox Virtue for a magi(it already IS that, but if the bonus is added after dividing... Then characters can often reliably cast higher level spells with Sponts than with Formulaics).
And the Diedne magic Virtue, even if you ignore the requisite Flaw becomes dreadfully lowend in comparison.
I´m not one for restrictions or lowpower gaming, but the above feels very broken to me.
Mad scientist parma against me doing any bad typos or ooopsies above... :mrgreen: