Making sense of some spells

So, I'm a bit new to this whole game and would appreciate some help getting my bearings. We have a guy in our group who is being somewhat creative with his spells. He's made a herbam specialist, and seems to be enjoying recreating everything and anything you can do with the other forms with his one, apparently to great effect. We're still trying to decide if this is what Ars is all about, or if he's trying to munch-kill us..

I wonder how you would deal with the following spell-propositions?:

Vine-Trap CrHe5
R: Sight, D: Diam, T: Ind
Immobilize target. Kinda like TotEV Crb page 135, only the one vine, that immediately attacks and immobilize a target and there is no lingering trap after-effect.
Base 1 +3sight +1diam

Deadly Thorn CrHe3
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
A 6-foot thorn strikes out from the soil or from wood, skewering the target.
Base 1 +2voice

Hurl the Shaft ReHe5
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
Sends a sharpened staff, branch or wand flying for +10/+8/+5 damage.
Base 3 +2voice

Hurl the Log ReHe5
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
Sends a sharpened 80kg log at a target at 100m per second.. (what would the damage be?)
Base 3 +2voice

Hurl the Logs ReHe15
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Group
Sends 10 sharpened 80kg logs at a target at 100m per second. (what would the damage be?)
Base 3 +2voice +2group

Oaken Egg-Shell CrHe5
R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
A large egg-like shell of solid oak envelops a target for the duration of the spell, trapping it. The shell is roughly 3 inches thick and weighs 80 kilograms. After it's been created, it immediately topples over if on a solid surface, possibly carrying the target with it on a penetrated magic resistance (strength – encumbrance difficulty 9+ to stay afoot). If created in midair it falls, obeying the laws of physics as would a 80-kilo man-sized oaken egg. This spell can also target a size +1 creature, but must overcome spell-resistance to do so, as the target will be almost completely immobilized. Such a target would automatically topple over, and is unable to cast spells requiring gesticulation or any other tasks requiring movement. If the target didn't carry any light sources, the environment inside the shell is pitch dark and silent.
Implications: Not penetrating magic resistance still traps the target, but the weight of the shell cannot topple the target over. The shell will, however, normally be too heavy to lift or push from within, implying that every move the target makes while resisting the topple-effect will move the target into an increasing awkward position. This will often make balance-checks to stay on-foot and concentration checks to cast spells with gestures (and other tasks where the shell might interfere) appropriate. If using wings to fly, the target will likely fall down (as the wings are unable to lift the shell resting atop the flying target. Any movement spell or mode of movement must take into account moving a 100-kilogram shell along with its target. A falling target would take falling damage as normal. A size -3 or lesser target is easily able to keep to its feet if the egg topples over, and is unhindered in spell-casting and the like once the egg is resting on stable ground.
Base 2 + 2(voice) + 1 (diam)

Gums of the Root-Granny CrHe5
R: Sight, D: Mom, T: Ind
You cause an oaken hardened 6-foot spike to spring up from the ground, skwewring a target for +15 damage.
Base 2 + 3(sight)

Abyssal Vine CrHe5
R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
A 6-foot long flesh-eating vine sprouts from the ground and swallows a target. The nightmarish plant have a leathery and very durable flower-bud containing a glue-like acidic flesh dissolvant. The vine gulps down a target of size 0 or less and keeps it immobilized while waiting for its meal to liquefy. The flower bud envelops the victim completely, blocks out light and muffles sound. The vine can be avoided by making a quickness – encumbrance stress roll of 9+. The victim can break free on a Strength stress roll of 12+.
Base 1 +2(voice) +1(diam) +1 size

Armamament of the Tree-Hugger MuCrReHeTe40
R: Touch, D: Moon, T:Ind
The spell is cast on a living vine that the caster is wearing like clothes. The vine is covering the caster in leaves, a bit like a coat of metal scales, only more covering. The spell 1. makes the leaves hard like iron. 2 either make a rego effect to compensate for the resulting encumbrance or a creo effect to make there be no encumbrance. 3 make a rego effect that holds the vine firmly connected to the caster at key ponts (part of the vine is wrapped around the caster like a parashute). 4 make a rego effect to have parts of the vine move with the caster with the strength of his rego like a piece of power armour (would the caster get effective stat increases? Would he be able to use rego in leu of physical stats for die-rolls?). 5 make a weak rego effect to have the parts of the vine not affected by the other effects coil up against the caster when not being manipulated by other magic (in other words strong enough rego to hold the vines in place, but weak enough to be easily overcome by other spell effects. 6 have 4 ends of vine tendrils sharpened and hardened for use as weapons.
Base 3 +1voice +3moon +1terram +1creo +1rego(combining effect 3 and 5) +1rego(+stats?) +1muto(would +10 dmg be appropriate?)

Thorny Vine-Harpoon ReHe5
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
Sends a sharpened vine prepared with armament of the tree-hugger flying for +10 damage.
Base 3 +2voice

Wow, that's a lot of spells! Welcome to the game.

I would urge you to err on the side of caution, especially if you're new to Ars Magica. Assume that the standard spells, given in the core-book, are probably the most-effective at what they do, and any attempt to do the same thing with different Arts will be of the same level or higher. As you grow accustomed to the game and what you want from it you can relax that mindset, but for the beginning it creates a feeling of verisimilitude as you don't have to wonder why House Flambeau isn't filled with Herbam mages.

There are also some tricks pulled in these spells that I just won't allow, at least not without a major penalty, as they are too 'munchkin' for my taste.

More specifically:

Why does the Trap of the Entwining Vines use a Group target to cover an area? Presumably, it is because CrHe doesn't really allow the vines to "attack" the target. Instead, they just wrap around and trap anything in the area. So a single vine will simply wrap around itself, in all likelihood. I would require an extra magnitude for 'unnatural' to direct the plant's growth, and a high Finesse roll too (EF 9 or 12). And I'd add another magnitude as punishment for choosing the sleazy Diameter duration instead of the evocative Sun duration of TotEV. So you end up with a CrHe level 15 spell, just like TotEV, but one that requires a high Finesse roll to be effective (while still needing to penetrate magic resistance). No wonder everyone prefers just using TotEV instead.

Generally speaking, CrIg should provide the guidelines for damage. So doing +5 damage should require a Base 4 spell, regardless of the rules-as-written implying otherwise - for game balance. So I would slap +3 magnitudes for that, have the thorn produce +5 damage, and - as per the discussion above - require a Finesse roll to aim the spell so accurately; perhaps only EF 6 for this spell, though. Your run-of-the-mill Flambeau would still prefer a CrIg level 10 spell to do the same damage without the Finesse roll.

Piercing Shaft of Wood is MuHe(Re) 10; it seems this spell attempts to bypass the Muto part to gain a magnitude. I'd allow it, but keep in mind a supply of sharpened missiles is required; the spell is thus less versatile. What you should be worried about is the player lowering the range to Touch and using Finesse to target; for such spells, follow the ReTe guidelines in Houses of Hermes: Societates.

I'd be especially snarky with this spell, and insist it's a ReTe spell as it only really treats the Terram (mass) aspect of the missile. Use the ReTe projectile guidelines from HoH:S for the damage and setting the base level. Even if this is to be a non-projectile (i.e. needs-to-penetrate) spell; the guidelines are still good to determine damage and level.

And drop the meter-per-second silliness; the world works by Aristotelian physics, not accurate measurements - the missile is simply "sent hurtling towards the target' or some-such.
[quote[Hurl the Logs ReHe15
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Group
Sends 10 sharpened 80kg logs at a target at 100m per second. (what would the damage be?)
Base 3 +2voice +2group[/quote]
Increasing the number of projectiles does not multiply the damage by a comparable amount; otherwise, madness ensues. I'd increase the damage by +5 above a single missile, corresponding to the increase in magnitude. Use the ReTe projectile guidelines, again, for setting the base and damage.

I hate those kinds of spells. Encasing someone in a sphere is something only PCs think of; it's munchkin and un-Mythical for my taste. I would say that: (a) MR still applies - if the spell fails to penetrate, the shell cannot be created around the target; (b) as this spell very likely "incapacitates" its target, I'd add a penalty to raise the base-level to the corresponding CrIg level, e.g. +3 magnitudes for unnatural and complex shape and +3 for being munchkinish. I would also grill the player for a reason why his magus thought of this weird spell to begin-with.

Again - use CrIg guidelines for damage, and require an aiming roll.

Creating what is obviously a magical, animated plant is a base 1 effect? Really?

Making a plant move with malevolent purpose is ReHe base 10. As the spell effectively incapacitates the victim, yet again, I'll add an extra +2 magnitudes. I'd also, however, note that magi can't just make up plants that don't exist. I'd insist the magus studies a Realia collection with this plant (see Covenants), or goes on adventure to collect the specimen. That will let me harvest an adventure from this spell.

Enchant a magic item already. Spells do one thing, not lots of things. You can cover yourself up with iron-strong leaves, but making them weightless would be another spell, boosting your strength is yet another effect, and don't get me started on the weapons.... Just craft a magic item already! It's a cool suit of armor, why make it a spell?! Invest another power to make it grow or recede if that's the issue.

As above - ReTe guidelines.

That's my taste, at least for a starting saga with players new to Ars. I'm sure others would be more lenient and let the players revel in their power and imagination. Rule as suits your taste.


A bit of both, actually. Ars is about trying to make the most out of your specialty. On the other hand, one needs to be careful not to fall into munchkinism by ascribing overly-powerful effects to the various guidelines.

For example, a base Individual for Herbam is "a plant roughly one pace in each direction". That is not the same as 1 cubic pace of solid wood, far from it. Imagine a shrub tree about 1 pace in each direction -- how much wood is that? Probably weights a few kilogram.

So here's my suggestions for dealing with the various spells. Some are mostly fine, while others are... problematic, shall we say? :wink:

This one is fine, if you presume that a single vine, of the size of a base Individual Herbam target (a plant roughly one pace in each direction), is sufficient to immobilize a human being.

Personally, I think a single plant produces a much weaker effect than a Group of them, even against a single affected creature. So I would probably go with a slightly easier Qik - Enc ease factor to avoid the vine (6+ instead of 9+), as well as an easier Strength ease factor to break out (9+ instead of 12+).

I would add at least a magnitude or two for "unnatural effect". A thorn does not grow by itself from the ground. If it grow from a piece of wood, that is Muto, not Creo (much like Transformation of the Thorny Staff, p.137).

Otherwise I'd allow the spell, but the damage would be small, something like +3 (equivalent to a dagger). Higher damage would require a Rego requisite for the added strength, but would also add another magnitude.

Damage should be a bit lower than for Piercing Shaft of Wood (p.137), since this is "just" a sharpened piece of wood (as opposed to an unnaturaly "sleek, barbed, strong shaft"). Probably +8/+6/+3. Otherwise the spell is fine.

An 80 kg log is more wood than a base Individual for Herbam. A plant that is roughly 1 pace in each dimension would weight about... say up to 10 kg at the very most? So you need an additional magnitude for the size of the log. Moving it that fast may also require an additional magnitude.

As for damage, I'd go with the amount of damage that a warhammer does (which covers heavy two-handed bludgeon weapons), so about +12 if moving at the basic speed for Rego, and maybe +18 if an additional magnitude is added.

See above for the level. I would say that having a Group strike the same target would simply increases damage. Anywhere from +5 to doubling damage (that's up to you).

This spell is simply too complex for a Base effect. Meaning that the shape is unnatural, so add a few magnitudes (at least 2), and the effect is complex (enclosing a target), so add a few more magnitudes (at least 2 more).

See my comments for Deadly Thorn above. And damage is much too high. A 6-foot oaken spike is very much like a Short Spear, so +5 damage would be my base. Anything higher would need a Rego requisite for a more forceful attack, doubling damage to +10 but requiring an added magnitude because of the requisite.

Flesh-eating vines simply did not exist in Europe. This would need to be a magical plant, thus a Vim requisite and a different Base. See the Animal guidelines (creating a magical beast starts at level 50). Essentially, that spell wouldn't work at all for me as described, unless it is a ritual and of much higher level (unlikely at less than level 60).

Too complex, too manmy effects in a single spell. Trying to make a wooden powered armor? Common man... Just say no... If the player asks why, refer him to The Central Rule (p.111).

Plants created with Creo generally grow, they don't instantly spring into being. They grow very quickly, but not quickly enough to do damage. I could see it working if he added a Rego requisite, but even then it would be limited to +3 damage. (Max damage = level of spell is a good rule of thumb for all but Ignem.)

If it's a previously specially prepared shaft, I'd say max damage is +5. He is obviously basing it on 'Piercing Shaft of Wood', but what he is missing is that the Muto component adds thorns and makes the shaft stronger.

That spell is not nearly high enough a level to do that. If it was submitted to me as an SG, I'd explain gently that a plant one pace in any direction is NOT the same thing as a solid block of wood one pace in any direction, quiz him on where the hell he got 100 m/sec, and then make him take extra magnitudes for controlling that much wood AND moving it that fast.
Same comments apply to 'hurl the logs'.

Again, Re requisite required, max +5 damage.

Not commenting on the rest of that obnoxiousness, since I'm on my tablet. The problem (IMO) is not with the spells, it's with the player. Try to explain to him that you're not playing D&D, that the point of ArsMagica is NOT to achieve optimal killing power, and suggest he put the rulebook down.... which might not help if he's memorized the thing.

The Central Rule, ArM5 p111. Done and dealt with.

A different restating of that rule: if power was that easy to gain, every magi would use it. Since it is not the case, these don't work.

No Rego, no control. Maybe with Finesse you can place it properly and force some sort of Quickness roll 6+.

No Rego, no control. Only bamboo can skewer someone naturally. The damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be.

The damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be. It is not clear if it is controlled (and Parma applies) or if it is thrown (and Finesse is required). Sending a hail of logs might reduce the Finesse enough to secure a hit.

A 1 cubic pace plant is a shrub which might weight 10 kg. Even if it has to penetrate Parma, there's nothing stopping you from requiring a Finesse roll to succeed. Just put a low-level pink dot on the thing and you're free.

Compare to Re(Mu)Te15 Hands of the Grasping Earth. The acidic damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be.

Rego means you need Finesse to move the armor. A spell with Gesture? Finesse 9+ EF to move your arms properly and then normal concentration EF roll, but then it cannot be Moon. Also, this spell does way too many things at the same time, just use separate effects like MuAn15 Doublet of Impenetrable Silk, but I'd be surprised if you could get more than 5 Soak out of it.

Except CrIg really shouldn't provide the basis.
Damage equl to spell base is much more common, and CrIg has very little use if it does not get that "free magnitude" worth of damage.
So +5 should require a Base 5 if you use this rule of thumb.

He's just recreated Accorns for Amusement (from Tales of Mythic Europe): This flings a piece of wood at voice range, doing +1 damage for a small, blunt piece, up to +10 for a large log a yard across. A prepared, sharpened, unfletched arrow shaft does +4 damage.

The power armor thingie: Just no. Base is too low, no magnitudes for complexity, blah blah blah. And spells are usually pretty specialized, doing one thing only, not a dozen.

Something to remember: +1 size usually means +2 str for creatures. +3 size is mostly weight *10.
Adding 1 magnitude for size to a spell allows you to affect up to 10 times as much material. Conveniently, CrIg also scales at +1 mag = +5 damage. You get the idea :wink:

Overall, agree with my 2 sodales, otherwise. Err on the side of caution, look at published spells, and draw from them.

Thank you all for the great replies!
I'll be sure to keep some of this in mind next time we discuss new spell effects. :slight_smile:

A follow up question tho,
The same player asked a lot about the possibility of duplicating spells from other forms but with a herbam theme. Some examples:

MuAn Doublet of Impenetrable Silk as MuHe Doublet of Impenetrable Wool.
MuAq Lungs of the Fish as CrHe Gillyweed (weed that breathes for you in water).
CrReAu Circling Winds of Protection as CrReHe Circling Vines of Protection.
CrCo The Chirurgeon's Healing Touch as CrHe Healing Poultice.
CrIg Ball of Abmyssal Flame as CrHe Ball of Acid from a Poison Ivy.
CrTe Conjuring the Mystic Tower as CrHe Conjuring the Mystic Tree-Lab and -Sanctum

What is your stand on these kinds of spells?

Surely that would be Impenetrable Linen, as Wool is still an animal product, and cotton isn't really in much use in Mythic Europe.

Sorry, I don't see this one working. No natural plant allow you to do this, and if you wanted to create a magical plant that gave you water breathing, I'd demand requisite(s). Certainly Aquam, maybe Auram. That may be an old-school approach, but I'd feel he was trying to actively munchkin and slap hm down for that. Oh and for using Potter as a source, obvously :wink:

I could see this working, though the rules might change a bit.

No. See the Gillyweed above.

Sigh No, that'd be CrAq - see those guidelines.
If he insisted, I'd point out that the effect of urushiol is an irritant - not a magical metal-eating super-acid.
And ofcourse, Poison Ivy is a north american plant - it's not present in mythic Europe. HE could try stinging nettles perhaps :wink:

I've seen this one used. It's a bit more susceptible to fire- and water damages that stone and needs watering, but otherwise I'm happy.

A bit more thought about these two:

To me, it looks like he not only wants to duplicate effects with his favorite Art, he also wants the effects contained in nice packages so they can be carried around and used as needed, even if he isn't there.
That's when you show him the rules for charged items and force him to read them.

And as for having a device - charged or not - cast a ritual? Just no. Expressely forbidden, save via Hermetic Empowerment (TMRE p. 64ff).

Generally speaking - different Art combinations can often be used to achieve similar ends, and those kinds of spells are fine. However, there are some things that are very difficult to achieve with a particular Form, and the list of spells above has some of them. Even if you do allow such spells to exist, I'd urge you again to err on the side of caution and not let them be superior to the "standard" spells used for the same purposes.

On the specific spells:


No. You can't create a magic item by using a spell.

I would, however, suggest that turning the person into wood would, arguably, mean they won't need to breath. Now, I'd also consider just how powerful would a spell that turns people into living-wood be; I suspect it should be a ritual.

I can see something like that working, perhaps indeed with slightly altered mechanics.

Again - you can't create magic items using spells. And you can't have items casting Ritual magic. So - no.

Edit: I can suggest a round-about way of healing with Herbam. First, turn the person to a wood statue using MuCo(He). Then, permanently "heal" the statue using a CrHe ritual (with Momentary duration). Then let the Muto spell's duration expire, and you have a healed person. If you do go down this road, I'd urge you to keep the CrHe rituals at the CrCo-equivalent level, at least. Personally, I'd also make this method be inherently tricky; I'd have the spells add an extra botch dice, and always require a stress roll even when Mastered, but have a botch usually manifest only when the Muto spell expires and in a way that's inspired by the Muto spell guidelines.

Eh, no. Powerful acid is Aq, not He.

You can just caused damage a la the spells above, though; why isn't that enough? I can also see a CrAq(He) spell that creates a deadly plant secretion... perhaps with a Vim requisite.


Not sure if this is RAW - but I could see it working.

He'd already be using he "super art", so no reason to complain.

I would use the rule set and explanations presented in the 'Ringing the Changes' p22 HoH:M. Although those rules are focusing on humans transforming to animals, I can see the same rules used for transforming people to plants, e.g.: using not only Coprus & Mentem, but Herbam magic to affect the transformed body.

I would like to also drive your attention to the first section of that box regarding the Warping effects. :smiling_imp:

Somewhat realistic at least. I would require a fairly hard Finesse roll for it to "hit" however. And the target is allowed the same chance to avoid and break away as TotEV, except with an easier roll.
Suggest change it to Group Target to avoid the above limitations.

Unrealistic. To actually skewer a target, it would most certainly require using Rego, probably with a MUCH higher base... Like say Base 5 Re(Cr)He. Base 3 can be argued but it feels a bit on the low side with just "control wood". Bringing an end tota up to around 15.
However, it probably needs a Finesse-roll for targeting as well.

Where did the projectile come from? Need Creo requisite unless the magi walks around with those sharpened pieces of wood on him. Again i would probably demand a higher Base, at least 4.

The damage would be instakill, this is basically almost a siege weapon spell... And this one is just munchkin.
And again doesn´t work unless it adds a Creo requisite. It can also be argued that it needs size adjustment.
Also, whenvever something uses Rego like this and the Base guidelines are unclear, compare with those for other Forms. Zero chance i would allow this spell to use Base 3. In the end, i think this spell should end up around level 35.

Same issues as above.

I would start by changing to Base 3. And probably add 1M for complexity. Not sure beyond that. But certainly not a level 5 spell.

Same issues as Deadly thorn.

Add +3 for being seriously complex.

Base should be 4, maaaybe 5. Touch/Voice, pick one. +1 or +2 for complexity, possibly more.
Lower the Duration to Sun and have it still be L50 and it might ok(but Yair´s comment about making it an item does have merit). (a lot of people will probably argue that it requires Concentration Duration)
Or it might need to be made multiple spells.

I would require it to have a higher Base, probably 4.

As others mention, together with Voice Range, without other additions a spell causing damage equal to level is a good basic guideline.

Just consider me agreeing with Tellus for those.

One addition is that while you cannot heal like with the CrCo spell, creating extracts of healing plants with CrHe works fine, just remember that such things are not a matter of instant or perfect effect.

Also, if you want the poison from some plant, you have to create the plant, then use Rego to extract the poison from it.

5th edition generally uses the role of "Either penetration or aimed, not both" (ArM5, p. 86, last few lines of first column)

... turning it back into Trap of the Entwining Vines, which I believe the player wanted to avoid?

I'm not a fan of this one either, but I could see it work. ish. Maybe.

5th edition generally uses the role of "Either penetration or aimed, not both" (ArM5, p. 86, last few lines of first column)

Without a Creo requisite, how is this different from Piercing Shaft of Wood (ArM5, p. 137), except that it shouldn't cause as much damage because it fires just a piece of wood?
With a Creo requisite, I'd dock 'im for each and every technique requisite.

Agreed. Indeed I don't really see the difference aside from flavour.

As well as Muto for an unnatural plant.

...warning. I think maybe that was the second trumpet... :wink:


HoH: MC, p. 22, but excellent catch.

Sorry to be late and brief, but I've had some software issues locking me out of the forum.

There's a magus with a similar build in Rise and Fall in Tales of Mythic Europe. I don't have my books with me so I can't check levels right now.

I also agree that Ignem should not be the scale for damaging spells, and as per a previous respondent, I assume Ignem is one magnitude more deadly than other Arts, simply because speciality in Ignem is so much less versatile than in Herbam or Terram. I'd like to suggest Aquam does even less damage because it is -very- versatile (I hope to write a little book about it for National Game Design Month).

Severin, from whom I took


To a large extent I'm repeating what others have written, but...

CrHe places the giant thorn. Finesse can help place it. But Rego is necessary to move that thorn with sufficient force to do damage, unless the target is conveniently running into the thorn (increase the Finesse target number to make that work.) So this spell must have Rego, adding a requisite and magnitude. Even hurled thorns are not likely to be deadly, unless they are very, very unnatural, or hurled with incredible force. There's a magnitude or two lurking here for creating a very unnatural thorn and hurling it rather than just moving it. With a Rego requisite, the finesse roll isn't really needed. Now we consider how much damage this thorn should do. Just because the spell description says "deadly," doesn't mean that you have to treat a wooden thorn pushed gently by a low magnitude Rego spell identically to a giant's iron-tipped arrow. Herbam really isn't very good at causing damage.

The Abyssal Vine is worse. First, the target of the spell is the vine itself, not the being you want it to attack. If you want to command the vine, you need Rego. Otherwise it might attack you! Or slither off in search of its favorite food. Or bask in the sun because maybe it isn't in the mood to attack. Of course, you first need to create the vine. It is not a natural plant, so it is up to the SG to decide if such a thing exists. If it does, it is probably magical because natural plants don't move, attack or dissolve people in acid. CrAn suggests that the base level for this would be 50, iirc, plus the Might of this thing. Its acid attack would probably also be magical, similar to a dragon's fiery breath or poisonous blood.

The armor spell is primarily acting as CrTe, and these should be the primary Arts. If the vine the character is 'wearing' doesn't have close to the bodily coverage of armor, one might consider not even permitting Herbam in the spell at all. Who are we kidding? In any case, the spell's level should be no less than if the entire thing were done with Terram. Note that the Terram aspect of the spell involves metal, which adds magnitudes to the power armor spell not accounted for here. Removing the weight of armor involves Perdo, adding another requisite and magnitude, and does not remove the bulk of the armor, only the weight. (The spell tries to do it with Rego, but that just moves the armor, and without massive Finesse rolls is likely to interfere with the wearer, because no aspect of the spell involves InCo that would help the armor move with the wearer on its own.)

The other spells deserve similar scrutiny.

Note that CrIg spells do not require a Rego requisite to hurt because fire causes damage simply by being present.

A key thing to understand about AM rules is that they have become sufficiently extensive to become inconsistent. Magi of Hermes, for example, offers spells that are almost identical, but one author chose a less expensive guideline than another, resulting in wildly divergent levels. This gives you the freedom to adjust spell levels on flimsy reasons or none at all. The rules are not so perfect that you should feel bound by them. If you don't want a spell in your saga, just keep it out.

The spells posted here do not seem to have correct levels by my way of thinking, and their effects also seem to Not Belong. But that's just me. If you and your group like these spells and consider them right for your saga, then go for it.

If a spell does many complicated things, treat each thing as a distinct spell, take the level of the highest component and add one magnitude for each other effect. If a spell seems to make one Form behave like another, maybe there is really a Muto(otherForm) spell sitting in here. So if your wood is as hard as steel, it probably has been changed sufficiently to be Terram (and metal, no less), because Herbam just doesn't get that hard and remain completely Herbam. If a spell description sounds too modern, it probably makes no sense at all. Meters per second? Flesh eating plants? Carbon? I don't know what these things are. Of course, the rules break themselves because Covenants talks about carbon being a component of steel, which isn't true in Mythic Europe because wtf is carbon? So if you want a modern feel in your saga, you can find justification for that too. Similarly, there is a ReHe spell in the rules that inexplicably moves Corpus too, so there is precedent for anything you like.

Have fun. :slight_smile:



Yes i know. But if it´s still warranted, you use both anyway.

NOT as originally written.

Range sight.

Possibly, i sort of took that under Complexity, as it´s created rather than changed, Muto can be claimed not to be needed.

if it makes sense, it makes sense. You have to work very hard for a very long time for me not to seriously read what you write. I have no use for prejudices.

I'd just note that the example spells in the Severin section of ToME support the interpretation that an Individual of Herbam can be a cubic pace of solid wood.