Making sense of some spells

The Central Rule, ArM5 p111. Done and dealt with.

A different restating of that rule: if power was that easy to gain, every magi would use it. Since it is not the case, these don't work.

No Rego, no control. Maybe with Finesse you can place it properly and force some sort of Quickness roll 6+.

No Rego, no control. Only bamboo can skewer someone naturally. The damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be.

The damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be. It is not clear if it is controlled (and Parma applies) or if it is thrown (and Finesse is required). Sending a hail of logs might reduce the Finesse enough to secure a hit.

A 1 cubic pace plant is a shrub which might weight 10 kg. Even if it has to penetrate Parma, there's nothing stopping you from requiring a Finesse roll to succeed. Just put a low-level pink dot on the thing and you're free.

Compare to Re(Mu)Te15 Hands of the Grasping Earth. The acidic damage is still limited by the base level, as any other Form would be.

Rego means you need Finesse to move the armor. A spell with Gesture? Finesse 9+ EF to move your arms properly and then normal concentration EF roll, but then it cannot be Moon. Also, this spell does way too many things at the same time, just use separate effects like MuAn15 Doublet of Impenetrable Silk, but I'd be surprised if you could get more than 5 Soak out of it.

Except CrIg really shouldn't provide the basis.
Damage equl to spell base is much more common, and CrIg has very little use if it does not get that "free magnitude" worth of damage.
So +5 should require a Base 5 if you use this rule of thumb.

He's just recreated Accorns for Amusement (from Tales of Mythic Europe): This flings a piece of wood at voice range, doing +1 damage for a small, blunt piece, up to +10 for a large log a yard across. A prepared, sharpened, unfletched arrow shaft does +4 damage.

The power armor thingie: Just no. Base is too low, no magnitudes for complexity, blah blah blah. And spells are usually pretty specialized, doing one thing only, not a dozen.

Something to remember: +1 size usually means +2 str for creatures. +3 size is mostly weight *10.
Adding 1 magnitude for size to a spell allows you to affect up to 10 times as much material. Conveniently, CrIg also scales at +1 mag = +5 damage. You get the idea :wink:

Overall, agree with my 2 sodales, otherwise. Err on the side of caution, look at published spells, and draw from them.

Thank you all for the great replies!
I'll be sure to keep some of this in mind next time we discuss new spell effects. :slight_smile:

A follow up question tho,
The same player asked a lot about the possibility of duplicating spells from other forms but with a herbam theme. Some examples:

MuAn Doublet of Impenetrable Silk as MuHe Doublet of Impenetrable Wool.
MuAq Lungs of the Fish as CrHe Gillyweed (weed that breathes for you in water).
CrReAu Circling Winds of Protection as CrReHe Circling Vines of Protection.
CrCo The Chirurgeon's Healing Touch as CrHe Healing Poultice.
CrIg Ball of Abmyssal Flame as CrHe Ball of Acid from a Poison Ivy.
CrTe Conjuring the Mystic Tower as CrHe Conjuring the Mystic Tree-Lab and -Sanctum

What is your stand on these kinds of spells?

Surely that would be Impenetrable Linen, as Wool is still an animal product, and cotton isn't really in much use in Mythic Europe.

Sorry, I don't see this one working. No natural plant allow you to do this, and if you wanted to create a magical plant that gave you water breathing, I'd demand requisite(s). Certainly Aquam, maybe Auram. That may be an old-school approach, but I'd feel he was trying to actively munchkin and slap hm down for that. Oh and for using Potter as a source, obvously :wink:

I could see this working, though the rules might change a bit.

No. See the Gillyweed above.

Sigh No, that'd be CrAq - see those guidelines.
If he insisted, I'd point out that the effect of urushiol is an irritant - not a magical metal-eating super-acid.
And ofcourse, Poison Ivy is a north american plant - it's not present in mythic Europe. HE could try stinging nettles perhaps :wink:

I've seen this one used. It's a bit more susceptible to fire- and water damages that stone and needs watering, but otherwise I'm happy.

A bit more thought about these two:

To me, it looks like he not only wants to duplicate effects with his favorite Art, he also wants the effects contained in nice packages so they can be carried around and used as needed, even if he isn't there.
That's when you show him the rules for charged items and force him to read them.

And as for having a device - charged or not - cast a ritual? Just no. Expressely forbidden, save via Hermetic Empowerment (TMRE p. 64ff).

Generally speaking - different Art combinations can often be used to achieve similar ends, and those kinds of spells are fine. However, there are some things that are very difficult to achieve with a particular Form, and the list of spells above has some of them. Even if you do allow such spells to exist, I'd urge you again to err on the side of caution and not let them be superior to the "standard" spells used for the same purposes.

On the specific spells:

Sure.

No. You can't create a magic item by using a spell.

I would, however, suggest that turning the person into wood would, arguably, mean they won't need to breath. Now, I'd also consider just how powerful would a spell that turns people into living-wood be; I suspect it should be a ritual.

I can see something like that working, perhaps indeed with slightly altered mechanics.

Again - you can't create magic items using spells. And you can't have items casting Ritual magic. So - no.

Edit: I can suggest a round-about way of healing with Herbam. First, turn the person to a wood statue using MuCo(He). Then, permanently "heal" the statue using a CrHe ritual (with Momentary duration). Then let the Muto spell's duration expire, and you have a healed person. If you do go down this road, I'd urge you to keep the CrHe rituals at the CrCo-equivalent level, at least. Personally, I'd also make this method be inherently tricky; I'd have the spells add an extra botch dice, and always require a stress roll even when Mastered, but have a botch usually manifest only when the Muto spell expires and in a way that's inspired by the Muto spell guidelines.

Eh, no. Powerful acid is Aq, not He.

You can just caused damage a la the spells above, though; why isn't that enough? I can also see a CrAq(He) spell that creates a deadly plant secretion... perhaps with a Vim requisite.

Sure.

Not sure if this is RAW - but I could see it working.

certainly.
He'd already be using he "super art", so no reason to complain.

I would use the rule set and explanations presented in the 'Ringing the Changes' p22 HoH:M. Although those rules are focusing on humans transforming to animals, I can see the same rules used for transforming people to plants, e.g.: using not only Coprus & Mentem, but Herbam magic to affect the transformed body.

I would like to also drive your attention to the first section of that box regarding the Warping effects. :smiling_imp:

Somewhat realistic at least. I would require a fairly hard Finesse roll for it to "hit" however. And the target is allowed the same chance to avoid and break away as TotEV, except with an easier roll.
Suggest change it to Group Target to avoid the above limitations.

Unrealistic. To actually skewer a target, it would most certainly require using Rego, probably with a MUCH higher base... Like say Base 5 Re(Cr)He. Base 3 can be argued but it feels a bit on the low side with just "control wood". Bringing an end tota up to around 15.
However, it probably needs a Finesse-roll for targeting as well.

Where did the projectile come from? Need Creo requisite unless the magi walks around with those sharpened pieces of wood on him. Again i would probably demand a higher Base, at least 4.

The damage would be instakill, this is basically almost a siege weapon spell... And this one is just munchkin.
And again doesn´t work unless it adds a Creo requisite. It can also be argued that it needs size adjustment.
Also, whenvever something uses Rego like this and the Base guidelines are unclear, compare with those for other Forms. Zero chance i would allow this spell to use Base 3. In the end, i think this spell should end up around level 35.

Same issues as above.

I would start by changing to Base 3. And probably add 1M for complexity. Not sure beyond that. But certainly not a level 5 spell.

Same issues as Deadly thorn.

Add +3 for being seriously complex.

Base should be 4, maaaybe 5. Touch/Voice, pick one. +1 or +2 for complexity, possibly more.
Lower the Duration to Sun and have it still be L50 and it might ok(but Yair´s comment about making it an item does have merit). (a lot of people will probably argue that it requires Concentration Duration)
Or it might need to be made multiple spells.

I would require it to have a higher Base, probably 4.

As others mention, together with Voice Range, without other additions a spell causing damage equal to level is a good basic guideline.

Just consider me agreeing with Tellus for those.

One addition is that while you cannot heal like with the CrCo spell, creating extracts of healing plants with CrHe works fine, just remember that such things are not a matter of instant or perfect effect.

Also, if you want the poison from some plant, you have to create the plant, then use Rego to extract the poison from it.

5th edition generally uses the role of "Either penetration or aimed, not both" (ArM5, p. 86, last few lines of first column)

... turning it back into Trap of the Entwining Vines, which I believe the player wanted to avoid?

I'm not a fan of this one either, but I could see it work. ish. Maybe.

5th edition generally uses the role of "Either penetration or aimed, not both" (ArM5, p. 86, last few lines of first column)

Without a Creo requisite, how is this different from Piercing Shaft of Wood (ArM5, p. 137), except that it shouldn't cause as much damage because it fires just a piece of wood?
With a Creo requisite, I'd dock 'im for each and every technique requisite.

Agreed. Indeed I don't really see the difference aside from flavour.

As well as Muto for an unnatural plant.

...warning. I think maybe that was the second trumpet... :wink:

indeed.

HoH: MC, p. 22, but excellent catch.

Sorry to be late and brief, but I've had some software issues locking me out of the forum.

There's a magus with a similar build in Rise and Fall in Tales of Mythic Europe. I don't have my books with me so I can't check levels right now.

I also agree that Ignem should not be the scale for damaging spells, and as per a previous respondent, I assume Ignem is one magnitude more deadly than other Arts, simply because speciality in Ignem is so much less versatile than in Herbam or Terram. I'd like to suggest Aquam does even less damage because it is -very- versatile (I hope to write a little book about it for National Game Design Month).

Severin, from whom I took

So,

To a large extent I'm repeating what others have written, but...

CrHe places the giant thorn. Finesse can help place it. But Rego is necessary to move that thorn with sufficient force to do damage, unless the target is conveniently running into the thorn (increase the Finesse target number to make that work.) So this spell must have Rego, adding a requisite and magnitude. Even hurled thorns are not likely to be deadly, unless they are very, very unnatural, or hurled with incredible force. There's a magnitude or two lurking here for creating a very unnatural thorn and hurling it rather than just moving it. With a Rego requisite, the finesse roll isn't really needed. Now we consider how much damage this thorn should do. Just because the spell description says "deadly," doesn't mean that you have to treat a wooden thorn pushed gently by a low magnitude Rego spell identically to a giant's iron-tipped arrow. Herbam really isn't very good at causing damage.

The Abyssal Vine is worse. First, the target of the spell is the vine itself, not the being you want it to attack. If you want to command the vine, you need Rego. Otherwise it might attack you! Or slither off in search of its favorite food. Or bask in the sun because maybe it isn't in the mood to attack. Of course, you first need to create the vine. It is not a natural plant, so it is up to the SG to decide if such a thing exists. If it does, it is probably magical because natural plants don't move, attack or dissolve people in acid. CrAn suggests that the base level for this would be 50, iirc, plus the Might of this thing. Its acid attack would probably also be magical, similar to a dragon's fiery breath or poisonous blood.

The armor spell is primarily acting as CrTe, and these should be the primary Arts. If the vine the character is 'wearing' doesn't have close to the bodily coverage of armor, one might consider not even permitting Herbam in the spell at all. Who are we kidding? In any case, the spell's level should be no less than if the entire thing were done with Terram. Note that the Terram aspect of the spell involves metal, which adds magnitudes to the power armor spell not accounted for here. Removing the weight of armor involves Perdo, adding another requisite and magnitude, and does not remove the bulk of the armor, only the weight. (The spell tries to do it with Rego, but that just moves the armor, and without massive Finesse rolls is likely to interfere with the wearer, because no aspect of the spell involves InCo that would help the armor move with the wearer on its own.)

The other spells deserve similar scrutiny.

Note that CrIg spells do not require a Rego requisite to hurt because fire causes damage simply by being present.

A key thing to understand about AM rules is that they have become sufficiently extensive to become inconsistent. Magi of Hermes, for example, offers spells that are almost identical, but one author chose a less expensive guideline than another, resulting in wildly divergent levels. This gives you the freedom to adjust spell levels on flimsy reasons or none at all. The rules are not so perfect that you should feel bound by them. If you don't want a spell in your saga, just keep it out.

The spells posted here do not seem to have correct levels by my way of thinking, and their effects also seem to Not Belong. But that's just me. If you and your group like these spells and consider them right for your saga, then go for it.

If a spell does many complicated things, treat each thing as a distinct spell, take the level of the highest component and add one magnitude for each other effect. If a spell seems to make one Form behave like another, maybe there is really a Muto(otherForm) spell sitting in here. So if your wood is as hard as steel, it probably has been changed sufficiently to be Terram (and metal, no less), because Herbam just doesn't get that hard and remain completely Herbam. If a spell description sounds too modern, it probably makes no sense at all. Meters per second? Flesh eating plants? Carbon? I don't know what these things are. Of course, the rules break themselves because Covenants talks about carbon being a component of steel, which isn't true in Mythic Europe because wtf is carbon? So if you want a modern feel in your saga, you can find justification for that too. Similarly, there is a ReHe spell in the rules that inexplicably moves Corpus too, so there is precedent for anything you like.

Have fun. :slight_smile:

Anyway,

Ken

Yes i know. But if it´s still warranted, you use both anyway.

NOT as originally written.

Range sight.

Possibly, i sort of took that under Complexity, as it´s created rather than changed, Muto can be claimed not to be needed.

if it makes sense, it makes sense. You have to work very hard for a very long time for me not to seriously read what you write. I have no use for prejudices.

I'd just note that the example spells in the Severin section of ToME support the interpretation that an Individual of Herbam can be a cubic pace of solid wood.

As far as I'm aware, and I may be wrong, a magus can only create something they've seen. So they'd need to have seen a plant with those properties to create one.

As mentioned by others, it would probably be much easier to avoid than TotEV, and even if successful it probably would only restrict the target's movements rather than immobilize him. I'd say qik-enc roll of 6+ to avoid, complete immobilization only on a botch, otherwise just one limb immobilized.

Hmm, no, you could make a vine already entwining a target grow thorns, or you could create a big thorn out of thin air -- but it would not "push into" the target.

These two spells are really one and the same. It's a spell called Acorns for Amusement, in ToME p.55. Damage is: small blunt object +1, arrow shaft +4, log +10 (I'd say sharpened log +13 or so). Note that the spell does not create the wooden projectile. Also, the 100 m per second part sounds very "unmythic", but that's just cosmetic.

As the above spell multicast into 10 copies; so +13 damage applied 10 times. Keep in mind, however, that there's probably not enough room on a single man-sized target for all 10 logs to land solid hits -- I'd probably just allow 1 or 2. On a whale or a dragon, however, it would be fine.

No need to penetrate even for a +1 size target. It's not clear to me, hovewever, how this could work if the target were standing on solid ground (in particular, how could you get the sphere under his feet). I'd allow it only if the target were flying or swimming.

Same problems as Deadly Thorn above. However, you could have the spike drop onto the target, requiring an aiming roll (probably pretty hard for a moving human target). Keep in mind that Mom duration is enough to last about a round, so you could create the spike several dozen yards in the air.

Animating a plant to attack is ReHe Base 4; you should build from there, adding a Creo requisite, yielding a nice level 25 spell. See the ReHe examples for stats (keeping in mind they are for larger plants). Also, keep in mind that the victim can dodge, so the monstrous plant would need a successful attack roll. Finally, any sensible target would keep his distance, so unless there's little room to maneuver, the monstrous plant would have to win initiative and even then would only get one attack.

Finally, no natural digestive fluids dissolve a target in 2 minutes, you'd probably need some extra magnitude if you really wanted some superstrong acid (it's an extra effect) using the Aquam guidelines; or you could just have the plant chomp on its target.

Too complex! I'd start with the same Base as Freeing the Striding Tree (ReHe Base 5), and animate the vine to just pick the target up and envelop him, while moving around and manipulating stuff with its own appendages. This would probably require a vine of at least +1 size. I'd also drop duration to Sun, for a total level of Base 5 +1 Touch +2 Sun +1size=ReHe 25. Keep in mind that the vine dies if you keep it too long uprooted. You could add an effect that makes the vine as hard as iron, but I'd say it would be unnecessary -- and it would require at the very least two extra magnitudes for Muto and Terram requisites.

I'm not sure why this would require Armament of the tree-hugger instead of being the usual Acorns for Amusement, above.

Sure!

I'm not sure how this is supposed to work -- MuAq changes water into air. You could create a snorkel-like reed allowing you to draw breath through it while fully submerged.

Sure, you'd need to rework the levels though, based on animating a plant. It's probably better to have a single spell that creates and animates a plant as a multipurpose servant that can attack, defend, carry etc.

You could create a healing poultice, but it would not be nearly as effective as tCHT -- it would probably only provide a small bonus to healing rolls.

That would be CrAq. Better create a wooden javelin and throw it!

Sure! Though stone is obviously sturdier than wood. However, with CrHe you could probably also "fast grow" a single sapling into a large tree, and shape it into a sanctum with a Rego requisite -- without requiring a Ritual.

Had missed that. Still.

There isn't really a Creo guideline for making an unnatural plant, which is why I wanted the Muto req.
I agree that Complexity might do it, it just feels off.

I was trying to make a joke :wink:

Yup. We have used them a lot in our last long saga, since Severin was a PC, and the spells became quite popular with the other magi as well. We are unsure if we would like to see that level of spells in ither sagas, though, since we are not sure we agree with "1 Individual of He = 1 cubic pace of solid wood" base parameter.

Xavi