MC: Becoming for the young magus

[caribet]

@Wanderer

No, it's just that I have made a thorough job of piecing together the hints in HoH:MC, here, and in the Berklist. You see, according to what I've understood, you may Initiate a Mystery Virtue in three ways:

a) the usual way, a Mystagogue that owns said Virtue leads you through the Initiation process; you may ask him for one variation in the Initiation, such as changing a Quest, or an Ordeal, if you find them impossible or too much of a burden to you. Details of the roll to make the variation are in HoH:MC.

b) you self-initiate (act as your own Mystagogue) but follow a standard Iniitation Script: they are written texts, similar to lab texts, as much as I understand it, so you may acquire one. You may change one compoenent of the Script, as above. The Initiation is more difficult, since you don't have the Virtue. Ease factors are in HoH:MC.

c) you experiment to create a completely different Script: this is the way new Scripts for new Mystery Virtues are created, or a competely different process to Initiate an outstanding Virtue. HoH:MC only states that "experimentation" is needed, but doesn't give any detail about the process:

Very astute, and quite accurate.
"Impossible" factors include "unique quest, but someone else did it first", and "reasonable quest, but I've already done it for a different Initiation, and you can't do the same Quest twice".
The other reason to vary is if your Mystagogue lacks Presence or Lore, and you need to add a factor to increase the script bonus.

Yes, the details for Experimentation (the only way to proceed if you do not have a pre-existing script) are in TMRE...

@Wanderer

We know that NPC Merinita magi (Quendalon, Ambrosius, Pendule, and Merinita herself) have been able to create at least 3-4 wholly new Scripts all by themselves, so it shouldn't be earthshakingly difficult, and House Mysteries have accumulated hefty portfolios of varying Scripts, so likely it's more akin to creating a new spell, or making a minor breakthrough.

Hmmm, no it's not earthshatteringly difficult - HoH:MC authors had access to TMRE final draft (as any author ought for an overlapping book!), and their proprotions of scripts and descriptions seem quite accurate too.

[caribet]

@Fruny

"Varying the Script" is at the bottom of page 4. I don't think he really meant experimenting as the term is used in the lab rules.

HoH:MC also mentions in passing that you can "Experiment" on Initiation Scripts, but gives no details - you need TMRE for that.

[caribet]

@Berengar

@Wanderer

... requiring the player and character to self-initiate or at most to experiment to create a new Script. In that case, I think the character has shown dedication enough to deserve any Virtue may fancy.

Apparently you know more about this than I do. Where is it described just how to 'experiment to create a new Script', as mentioned in MC p.4? Not in MC p.4f. And that's the only place in MC where to expect it with reason. Did I just get an anticipation of TMRE by a playtester?

Kind regards,

Berengar

It is mentioned that you can Experiment, but the details are stated to be in TMRE. It's more complicated than "Varying" and there's considerably more about Initation Scripts to be found in TMRE... as you might reasonably expect!

[Wanderer]

@caribet

Very astute, and quite accurate.
"Impossible" factors include "unique quest, but someone else did it first", and "reasonable quest, but I've already done it for a different Initiation, and you can't do the same Quest twice".
The other reason to vary is if your Mystagogue lacks Presence or Lore, and you need to add a factor to increase the script bonus.

There is another very important and common reason for seeking a Script change you seem to overlook, i.e. the Script includes an Ordeal that would utterly ruin my lifestyle or my magic: e.g. an Eunuch Ordeal for a Lecherous character, or Mute for a magus with Necessary Condition: Singing, or Deficient Rego for a Rego specialist.

[caribet]

@Wanderer

As of now, I'm also curious to get TMRE to see if and to which degree Mysteries exist that allow mages to get even more in attunement with the Magical Realm than the Gift allows: a magical Becoming, so to speak (yes, I know Final Twilight in all likelihhod does it; the point is doing it in a controlled way, just like Bjornaer do with the Inner Heartbeast). The comparison would be enlightening also for fearie mysteries, i think.

Ah, well, yes... that would be telling...

Final Twilight is not it, though - FT takes your character out ofthe game, and the whole point of 5e things is to add story twists to keep them involved.

post-Becoming Merinitae may be pretty outlandish and inhuman, but they are still ingame characters. I think we can expect TMRE to stick to the same guiding principle...

[caribet]

@Berengar

@Wanderer

I would expect a spont-focused magus undergoing a partial Becoming to self-initiate virtues like Self-Confident, Diedne magic, or Faerie-Raised magic to offset the no-fatigue drawback. And no, it isn't "powergaming".

The magus certainly would want to do so. And that's indeed not powergaming.
But the availability of any initiation is of course decided by the SG(s) or entire troupe, who likely will examine wish-lists for self-initiations verrry carefully - especially if these contain controversial Virtues like Diedne Magic.

Straight "Self-Initiation" isn't very different from normal Initiation, except that (a) you act as your own Mystagogue running the script; and (b) perforce it will be "a Virtue not possessed by the Mystagogue".

You still need a script, and the SG can control and constrain that.

[Or the character can use the full TMRE system to Experiment on himself and create a new script from scratch, in which case the SG can watch in amusement...]

[caribet]

@Wanderer

@caribet

Very astute, and quite accurate.
"Impossible" factors include "unique quest, but someone else did it first", and "reasonable quest, but I've already done it for a different Initiation, and you can't do the same Quest twice".
The other reason to vary is if your Mystagogue lacks Presence or Lore, and you need to add a factor to increase the script bonus.

There is another very important and common reason for seeking a Script change you seem to overlook, i.e. the Script includes an Ordeal that would utterly ruin my lifestyle or my magic: e.g. an Eunuch Ordeal for a Lecherous character, or Mute for a magus with Necessary Condition: Singing, or Deficient Rego for a Rego specialist.

Now, there is a different issue - strictly the choice of Ordeals is down to the Mystagogue (who may vary the script or not), and the Cult backing them up;
you may find that the Cult is deeply unsympathetic to those who claim "this will seriously impair my lifestyle", saying instead "this is the worthwhile sacrifice which we made, and you should emulate your betters and do the same".
Many of the real limits in what seem to be arbitrary game mechanincs, are actually meant to be social limits imposed by magi on other magi: joining the cult involves "being the same", and sacrifice means "giving up what you hold dear".

If you have a Necessary Condition which clashes with the explicit goals of a Cult, you may be in the wrong cult...
The rego specialist giving up Rego may be making a great sacrifice for a greater reward. (Note that even HoH:MC refers to eg having to construct a Talisman in order to sacrifice it)
Sacrifices are there to be suffered, not to be something (the player of) the character does not mind giving up.

Of course, you can always find a deviant branch of the cult, or a completely different cult, or even found your own (if anyone joins you!).

[Wanderer]

@caribet

Now, there is a different issue - strictly the choice of Ordeals is down to the Mystagogue (who may vary the script or not), and the Cult backing them up;

And in this situation, the aspirant has three choices, as I said, petition the Mystagogue for a variation, trying to get his hands on a Script and self-initiate and try the variation himself, or experiment to create a new script.

you may find that the Cult is deeply unsympathetic to those who claim "this will seriously impair my lifestyle", saying instead "this is the worthwhile sacrifice which we made, and you should emulate your betters and do the same".

there are sacrifices, and there are sacrifices. As far as I see it, Ordeals and Quests should be worthwhile (or they lack mystical signficance), but not totally ruining a character's lifestyle (which in most cases, means the character's magical specialty or magical style). I expect that in most cases, a Mystagogue should be reasonable to a honest petition (again, i'm thinking of the case of specialist being asked for an ordeal ruining such specialty). After all, variant Scripts do exist. If Mystagogues are inflexible, the petitioner is given the choice of renouncing the Initation, or (more liekly) experiment and try to develop a different Script.

Many of the real limits in what seem to be arbitrary game mechanincs, are actually meant to be social limits imposed by magi on other magi: joining the cult involves "being the same", and sacrifice means "giving up what you hold dear".

If you care, you can always experiment to develop new Scripts. That's how new branches of the Cult develop, after all. After all, the sacrifices we are talking about are stuff like dodging a Deficiency for a specialist, not stuff like Vows or Prohibitions that are the real glue of a cult.

If you have a Necessary Condition which clashes with the explicit goals of a Cult, you may be in the wrong cult...

Not necessary. E.g. the example that prompted me to raise this issue: a Creo or Perdo speicalist wishing to Initiate Galmour magics. Should such a mage necessarily subdue to pick Unnatural or Harmless magic ? Are such Flaws really necessary to be a Glamour Merinita ? I don't think it. i think that you can effectively substitute them with many other Ordeals that "vibe" with the Mystery's theme, such as Weird Magic, Unpredictable Magic, a deficiency in Intellego, Unbearable to Humans, etc. And such a amge would not be unreasonable to ask such a substitution. After all, Mystagogues are Hermetic mages, too, and should be sympathetic for a plea to respect one's magical specialty.

The rego specialist giving up Rego may be making a great sacrifice for a greater reward. (Note that even HoH:MC refers to eg having to construct a Talisman in order to sacrifice it)

Destroying a talisman is nowhere as close in severity as picking up a Flaw that ruins one's magical specialization, or the character's concept. Talismans, like time, quests, vis, are renewable resources. I think a reasonable threshold should be either renewable sacrifices (time, quests) or ordeals that change but do not harm the character concept or his magical specialization. If the Mystagogue cannot or will not vary the script
to accommodate this threshold, but the (player's) character wish the Mystery nonetheless, then it's time to experiment to develop a new Script.

Sacrifices are there to be suffered, not to be something (the player of) the character does not mind giving up.

As long as the sacrifices are such, i.e. they involve a meaningful sacrifices of a game-worthy resource, shouldn't they be valid ? This involves picking up Flaws that have a game impact, but do not necessarily "disfigure" the character's concept to be valid. I thought one of the major points of revising the Mystery rules was to emphasize the role of Quests, and donwplay the role of Flaws, and avoiding excessively crippling Mystae characters with a truckload of Flaws.

Of course, you can always find a deviant branch of the cult, or a completely different cult, or even found your own (if anyone joins you!).

Well, as soon as you have created a wholly new Script fo an existing Mystery Virtue, you have effectively done that. I'm simply saying that in situations like the one of the Rego specialist facing a Rego deficiency Odreal, or a Perdo specialist facing Harmless magic, the obvious choice would be ask for a script variation, try to self-initiate and do the same, or experiment for a different Script.

Of course, where a different branch of the same cult, or a different cult offering the same Mysteries are available, the simplest choice would be to seek them instead, since it is likely that you will find their philosophies and methods more agreeable. E.g. It is likely that a Creo or Perdo specialist would seek Illusion Mysteries from the Shadow-Masters instead of the Followers of Pendule: in addition to have less crippling Ordeals for those concepts, their "illusion is substance" vibes better than the others "illusion is whimsy".

Of course, only TMRE writers know how likely is it to find different branches of the same cult, or different cults offering the same Mysteries, for non-house Mysteries For House ones, I'd say it is rather easy for Merinita, somewaht more more difficult but doable for House Bjornaer Mysteries, all but impossible for Criamon and Verditius, which would require experimentation.