Mecere portal creation

The spell has no requisites nor causes warping because it's not a teletransportation effect. It's a Rego Terram ritual that bends the Earth itself to create a shortcut between two places. It creates what you'd call a "wormhole" in sci-fi. Which is interesting because in this context, Terram is used as the Art that governs "space" itself.

I'm pretty sure I've read in some of the books that Mercere's Portals were developed through a breakthrough, which allowed enchanting that particular effect into a device despite being a ritual. If I recall it correctly, it was used as an example for one of the integrations suggested in Ancient Magic, since there were a couple of them that dealt with enchanting ritual effects. Don't quote me on this though, because I'm not sure where was that line, although I'm certain it's mentioned somewhere.

If the spell is doing it the way I understand, then it should allow air to pass through, you'd be able to see through it, and you'd also be able to stand in between the two ends. As to what would happen if the effect ended right at that moment, I guess that's open to interpretation. Personally I'd say you get split in half.

A start for understanding Mercere Portals is here:

Both the Aegis and the Mercere Portal are constitutive for the role of the Order of Hermes in Mythic Europe. Both are rooted in Mercurian magic and more powerful than standard Hermetic magic.
Any improvement of one of them would be a breakthrough, celebrated and exploited by the Order in no time. So fiddle with them as a major topic of your saga, at your own risk and responsibility.

Cheers

It's funny, in all the Ars game I was involved either as player or GM, there was a silent agreement from all GM that no PC, no matter how hard they try, could secure a few scoops of this rare mystical handwavium...

I guess, it is one of this many loops/opportunities left for GM to stir their saga wherever they want. Like a lot of possible integration or breakthrough it has not been done, to leave some challenge for th PCs. Sure, it does not solve the question on how these portals work and how can it be customised for other purposes, but on the other hand it gives you free reign to decide what works for your saga.

If I remember correctly, there is a lingering belief in the Order that all the great works that was achieved in the past cannot be improved and magi should only be recreating what has been done. But as soon as you start scratching the surface of things with a modern, inquisitive mind, you see the potential from improvements. That's were PCs can make their marks.

Moving Aegis or Ward, Hermes Portal, large class of apprentices and so on...

Hermetic Magic is the most powerful and flexible supernatural force in Mythic Europe. Except for all the really powerful and useful stuff - that has to be declared "non-hermetic".

Really all you have to do is make a guideline sufficiently high enough and it becomes equally inaccessible.

Also, 'Non-Hermetic' isn't even required to keep things out of player's toolboxes. Plenty of spells would have non-replicatable experimental results

I'm not so sure about that. See the thread about the Level 130+ (!!!) spell from Dies Irae.

And this was something easily achieved in play? No, it was NPC handwaved, just like an Original Research could be handwaved. Even learning Hermes Portal is a big deal for a PC magus, a 75 lab total isn't trivial even for an old magus unless it's in his area of expertise (and even an ancient magus won't be able to under most circumstances). If a magus must focus to achieve an impressive result, it's out of reach of most PCs - only those that really want it (build their character for that purpose) will gain access. And that's fine.

I disagree. Some storyguides (this guys 8) ) do not mind or pay much attention as players super optimize and spread their wings. I know of at least three characters in my saga that if they had a mind to do so, could build one of those things in about five years or so. Not overnight and it would take effort yes. But they are not starting out specialized for it nor would they wind up that way.
And I don't find it that impressive anyway. I liked it better when it was a Perm duration Ritual spell called Hermes Portal. I think the real reason MP works as it does is because someone realized they screwed up the setting and the Order needs some sort of standing portal system to function the way it does. Or at least in my mind it does, and I make extensive use of it. Maybe the author just thought it was cool and he made a command decision. That is something I respect :wink:

I think that between the super duper labs from Covenants and the ability to team up with a little Leadership skill just about anything (ok, probably not 130 but certainly 75) is within reach. That's without foci or other uber specializations either. Lab Totals have gotten a little out of hand, IMO.

See [POSSIBLE SPOILER] Dies Irae - high lab totals - #28 by Berengar .

Cheers

Your point? Mentioning the existence of a 130th level spell spoils nothing and doesn't even remotely respond to his point made earlier, in response to Marko's point, that lab totals have gotten out of hand.

In its context, DI p.31 box certainly doesn't show, that lab totals have gotten out of hand.

Cheers

I'll take your comment as generally non-responsive, thanks, One Shot.

:question: Anyway, an understanding needs two. And certainly the conversation I quoted and answered with the link was between Jabir and John Prins. :confused:

Cheers

I don't see any spoiler in pointing to a thread that's been ongoing for around two weeks now. The participants in that thread have pointed to several viable ways to create Level 130 effects, so I don't think I'm the only one to see extremely high lab totals as being possible within the current rules.

I wish that the game worked in the manner that John Prins suggests. I remember playing early editions where simply assigning a high level to an effect made it impressive, out of reach and, effectively, a breakthrough. This let players remain within the system of Hermetic Magic and the basic, imo well thought out, magic rules, rather than requiring clumsy systems for original research or regular handwaving sessions.

The requirements for archmage status, a holdover from earlier editions, still require that the candidate develop a Magnitude 7 (level 35) spell. That used to be a big deal. Not so much now.

Indeed, you did not spoil anything.

The thread [POSSIBLE SPOILER] Dies Irae - high lab totals has the problem, that it cannot discuss the conditions of the lab total required and possible in DI The End of Time, without spoiling that campaign. So I took its discussion with Lebo77 - on his request - offline soon.
Anyway, The End of Time does not handwave the lab task in question.

Of the dangerous options for lab totals, the thread [POSSIBLE SPOILER] Dies Irae - high lab totals has AFAICS only addressed in passing the loop-hole in Covenants p.121 Magic Items in Laboratories, which allows an arbitrary number of different effects from enchanted items to add their points to the same lab Specialization, and as balance uses lab Warping added at SG's discretion.

Quite.

Cheers

To clarify my position, I do not think Lab Totals are all that out of hand. Perhaps for some and/or in some situations. But it has not caused a problem for me as of yet. What does throw me are some of the crazy things mundanes can do with rules in A&A or C&G. The high-level Hermetic stuff I can deal with. I am familiar with the concepts and potential possiblities. But when a scholar or a baker can create natural longevity items that grant a +10 bonus with no Warping or sterility, well, that is the sort of stuff that catches me off guard.

As for the Seventh Magnitude, I still hold that as a regarded benchmark. It is a sign that the wizard is growing strong, at least in a specific area if not also in general. It is difficult to start with a Level 35 spell from Gauntlet without a focus. I also reset Warping to highlight that mark. As an HR, Warping begins at level 35 instead of 30.

I should probably clarify too. My concern is not that high lab totals allow powerful effects. High powered and low powered games are both fun. The issue is that high lab totals blow through the top of the scale that the core system is designed for. The result is that instead of simply having high level spells the game has to add complexity with subsystems like the process for original research of the use of Finesse for craft magic. The basic lab process and effect level system are much more understandable and usable.

As to the mundane effects, I agree. A related problem is that everything in stackable, so that two effects that each sort of push the limits combine to go way beyone.

Setting all that aside for the moment, the OP has inspired ideas and has me crunching numbers. My saga has the concept of portal hubs and networks as a major background element. But I have introduced new elements that could radically change that and pressure characters into finding a way to compensate.
Now, the way I like to think of it is the Hermes Portal came first. Based on old Mercurian rituals or whatever, it was the way things worked back in the day. The invested device version Mercere Portal came about after the Schism War. Their primary advantage being cost effective in the long run but also having the advantahe of security (trigger design) and potentially having additional effects (it is a pair of invested devices after all).
Now why is the original a Ritual? Besides having a high level, it provides true instant transit and either disregards all requisites or metaphysically links two geographic places via magical co-location.
Does that make it non-Hermetic? Not really. Any magus with the proper skills can duplicate similar effects and/or can learn the Hermes Portal spell as they choose.
Casting it can be tricky, requiring two magi that know the spell and thirty pawns of vis (15 each). Wizards Communion and Mercurian Magi are both a big help and can bring the cost down to 16 (8 each).
Creating the Mercere Portal is a heavier investment of both time and vis. One must study a lab text to "learn the secret". Perhaps the secret is that you have to know and master the spell and that is what you spend that season doing?
Then two Invested deviced have to be opened and enchanted. 28 pawns of vis and several seasons of time. At full Verditius scale (3xCost), that is a value of 84 pawns. But it is more restricted and a Verditius may not access the "secret text".
Plus a cerimonial casting of Hermes Portal when the items are fixed in place. I would still charge vis for this "ceremony" because I am a d!k and it helps my story idea.
Now, with the righ scores in place and Labs provided by House Mercere, it will take two magi only one year to craft a single portal (1s each to learn spell, study text open item, and enchant item, then cast spell at the end). It would take a lone magus with a casting partner about a year and a half (1s each to learn spell, then lone magus 1s to study text 2s open devices, 2s to enchant).
Either way will require 28 pawns up front. A tad cheaper than HP and permanent. Having the link ceremony cost vis is what balances it out and makes my idea work. That adds up to 30 pawns, for an up front cost of 58. Minimum 44 (Mercurian Magic to cast the link).
So let us presume every peg is in place and the gears are oiled. It will take a team of two magi five years and 220 pawns of vis to build a network of five portals.
So let us say there are projects like this in the works scattered here and there. More or less. A ten year plan to invest in the Hermetic Infrastructure. An idea worthy of Changing Mythic Europe. Money has been bugeted, some of it spent. A grand work in progress.
Then everything hits a snag. A simple banking crisis. The Mercere banking system, while advanced by medieval standards, is quite primative by modern standards. Going off on my own little thing here, so just follow along.
Things hit a snag, and there are other problems to sort out that are foreground material. But in the bakground, there is the Portal situation.
The experienced team can do it faster I just realized. After learning the spell and studying the text, they can make two pairs per year.
Anyway, the network will make money once money is spent. But they are short on money.
Now presume two Mercurian magi casting just the spell. With an up front cost of only a third (just a tad over), they can set up a network all at once and start making money right away. When things stabilize &/or the system makes enough profit, invest in the original system.
I can play with further complexities, but that is the basics of my idea as inspired in part by the OP.

See, players are always going to find ways to make really big numbers. Breakthrough, "non-Hermetic," secret, Ancient Magic and other stuff like that is a way to say "these effects either aren't available to Hermetic magi or are only available in a limited form, and developing and spreading them would likely alter the dynamics of the Order of Hermes and become a focus of your saga real quick." They're plot devices, and the system provides loose framework rules for them, but it's more complicated than stacking a giant lab total and holding it for ten seasons.

So yeah, a lot of stuff (often high-powered) is "non-Hermetic," because if it could be done through standard Hermetic guidelines, then the Order of Hermes would have forgotten the nonstandard method or only kept it around as a curiosity. I imagine that there's plenty of Lab Texts still in Durenmar describing curious old spells that use the pre-Vim Realm Arts, or a quasi-Hermetic half-integrated version of Pilum of Fire that requires an Arcane Connection even if you can see the target. And there's certainly plenty of nonstandard spells with interesting and useful experimental side effects (it's too bad we didn't see more of those in published material; it would be cool if some such spells had become standard, buy-it-for-a-pawn Lab Texts to allow for quasi-Hermetic effects at a particular level).

Because Ars Magica is a game of nerds, these kind of corner cases should exist exactly so far as they're entertaining.