Magi can cast level 50 spells at character creation without fatigue loss if they specialize. And they usually should.
Mighty beings should really look at Variable Power. The ones in books don't use it for some strange reason. They only can take it once per power, but it's really good, either making a power better or by providing more versions of it. For example, a Might 40 dragon can take this for his dragon breath, and get 8 different kinds of dragon breath in addition to the one he already has. He can take it again for his mind control power, and get 8 variations of that too. Or he might just make one power even better, by 8 magnitudes. It's a tough choice!
Ken is correct here. It's not hard to build a character who has a level-50 formulaic spell at gauntlet. You don't even have to hyper-specialize, just specialize. I can't remember exactly how high I got in the optimization thread I made. I think I got up to the low to mid 90s for the maximum level for a starting character's formulaic/ritual spells at gauntlet (following quick rules, not the detailed development rules). That required hyper-specialization, but it does show you what is possible.
The bigger deal is that the Might character can start with something at that scale along with huge penetration. That's what you're unlikely to see out of a starting magus. Of course, as I showed, with hyper-specialization you could cast a level-50 spell with getting close to 50 penetration. But that requires devoting everything about the character toward it, rather than a few out of a whole bunch of Qualities.
They could, they should not. I ran those numbers in my second post and that character was decidedly overspecialized. Callen your magus' highest level spell is 40, 23 years after gauntlet.
Ya, Variable Power seems a bit too strong for a Minor Virtue... Even a starting character is getting 4 mags added onto his greater power. Appropriate ability wouldn't be so bad if you always said the appropriate ability was a new ability called (That Power's Name) Mastery. Then you would basically be just a slightly stronger version of mastery. Puissant and Affinity... Puissant could plausibly be said to not count just like it doesn't count for books and such. Not so worried about affinity at that point.
I don't buy being able to have 8 kinds of Dragon breath. All of your powers should fit your theme even if you have a virtue. SO you could move it from an AOE to a single target or something but having rainbow breath attacks is pretty much right out. There is only so much movement within the Similar spell effects.
If you plan on taking it your could get quite a bit of utility out of it if you plan your abilities to use it.
Hmm. With or without fatigue? A Casting Total of 78 + die is straightforward enough, but going beyond that starts to involve things like Cyclic Magic, Magic Foci, charms, Spell Mastery... Unless I'm missing something.
I wonder how much of that 'Might as an ability' issue would be fixed if you just made it harder to spew points into it. Instead of making it a Supernatural Ability (which by the rules would allow gifted individuals to try and take it too) you just make it an alternate method of advancement, stick it in the same category as Age and Warping. Since by default IIRC Magic creatures don't age, you can just replace Age with it. Figure out how quickly you want it to advance. Maybe add a penalization for staying in no-Aura areas, just like how mundanes get warping for being in high magic areas. Let players redirect adventure XP into Might Experience instead of making might an ability. I think there's precedent for that (I remember Merinita have a virtue that lets them redirect xp into spell learning)
Just a thought. If the problem is abilities are too easy to abuse, just do it that way.
I'm WAY less experienced than most of you, but the biggest problem I ran into with magic characters was the urge to turn all powers into 0-might cost for spammable use and increased penetration. Plus the Might/Qualities were a double-enhancing power increase.
Yes, but that's a bad comparison. First, due to a house rule we weren't allowed to start with spells over level 30, or I would have begun with some other stuff, likely including a ReVi 40 spell. Second, you're looking at a Finesse-focused mage who uses a Minor Magical Focus to allow for having very spread out Arts. Those spread out Arts are generally far from ideal.
I have another character who started out with Creo 17+3 and Vim 9. Creo and Vim don't match as well as others. In this case it's just that I needed a bunch of Vim things while making a Creo-focused mage with a Minor Magical Focus in aging. Even then, the character started with a CrAq 35 attack spell.
Consider the following: Int 3 + MT 3+1 + Aura 3 + Technique 13 + Form 13 + Focus 13 = 49. That costs 212 points, leaving 28 points available, even with absolutely no points in Virtues used beyond a Minor Magical Focus. With 10 points of Virtues remaining (11-1 when you include the House Virtue), it really doesn't take much to make this manageable without being overly focused. Is that decidedly over-specialized? If you think so, consider again what you could do with those Virtues. Let's make this a Bonisagus or Flambeau or Mercere. Add in 2x Puissant Art and Puissant Magic Theory, and now the cost to get two 10+3 scores and MT 3+2 is 140, leaving 100 points in Abilities/Arts, any desired choice of specialty in Magic Theory, and 7 points of any Virtues still available. That's enough room that neither that Technique nor that Form needs to be your best Art.
But I think Ken's point was that they should specialize, not that necessarily should start with a level-50 spell.
I was maximizing the level of the starting spell, not the casting total, though. Yes, maximizing Penetration would be done differently. You can still get two Arts at 22+3 apiece. That along with Stamina +3 gives you a 78 casting total. Yes, I would probably use Spell Mastery, as each point can give +2. Throw in a little Penetration, and you should be able to get to the low 90s before the die roll efficiently. And then it's whatever other little tweaks can be thrown at it. Life Boost is obvious, but we're going for massive penetration without spending Fatigue. As I said, that involved hyper-specialization.
Really? 10+3 in two Arts, Minor Magical Focus, and Puissant Magic Theory along with the minimum normal expenditure in Magic Theory is going overboard? I would totally agree that the hyper-specialized combinations I presented are going overboard. I did say they are "hyper-specialized" for a reason. But I find two Arts of 10+3 to be far from going overboard.
Adeline at gauntlet had a 12 and a 10, and that was because I was aiming for a fairly spread out set of Arts in the end (and I intentionally started with lower Arts because of the house rule on starting spells and an intention of using Strong Faerie Blood for post-gauntlet development). In the same saga look at Roland at gauntlet: two Arts at 10+3 and a Minor Magical Focus that can apply to them; meanwhile Roland also had scores of 6 in five other Arts at gauntlet. Roland was abandoned for Richards, who was going to start with an Art combination of 12+3 and 14+3 with an applicable Focus at gauntlet; meanwhile Richards also had scores of 6 in three other Arts and 4 in another at gauntlet. Richards was later abandoned, but neither of those were abandoned for being over-specialized. Even the sample Flambeau in the core book has Creo 12 and Ignem 12+3 along with an applicable Focus, though just barely short on Intelligence and Magic Theory, only being able to start with a level-48 spell. The sample Bonisagus has two 12s, and if Minor Magical Focus were to replace any one of several Virtues, that magus could start with a level-50 spell. If we look in Magi of Hermes, we see others. Gwidion at gauntlet has one 18, two 10s, two 8s, and some lower scores and an applicable Focus; he can only start with a level-48 spell, but if he were less specialized, moving points from the 18 in Rego to the 10 in Herbam, he could start with a level-50 spell. Tolides has a 12+3 and a 9 with an applicable Focus, for a possible level-45 spell at gauntlet. I'm sure I could find plenty more if I were to look further.
I find the real problem is the line in the core book that says, "It is probably unwise to put more than 55 experience points, for a score of 10, into any one Art, as that tends to indicate that your magus is over-specialized." That is terrible advice and is far from accurate about being over-specialized. You're generally far better off with a couple scores in the low to mid teens than tons of scores of 5 or lower. Whoever wrote that advice did not understand the difference between diluted and generally useful. And more than half the sample at-gauntlet magi in the core book start with at least one Art of 10+3 or 11 or higher. Much better advice would have been something like this: "It is probably unwise to start without scores of at least 10 in any two Arts, as that tends to indicate your magus is not specialized enough."
So you both insist on replacing the way RoP:M proposes to resolve your issue by adding a new limiting mechanism. Your call in your games, of course, to which I will leave you now.
But does it really resolve your issues with the very free form character development of RoP:M p.29ff Magic Characters?
With this proposal from one of RoP:M's authors, the "45 applications of the Improved Abilities Quality" should certainly not have happened, even without 'fully mechanizing' this aspect of the development of Magic Characters.
Yes, it solved things pretty well for me, and it was pretty straight-forward since it was already built into the rules for character development. It wouldn't solve Sir Swindle's worries, though. Meanwhile, Mark's is also a house rule that adds a new limiting mechanism.
That works kind of ok for familiars, like I said before I just don't allow transformation for them. Your magus is dumping Vis that could easily go into enchanting the familiar with a spell effect that makes a cone of fire and instead pouring it into transformation.
But if that is you are just playing a magic character then that doesn't really work. If you are high might then you are already getting shafted by your own Might. It takes you 20 pawns to get a transformation and you can't get XP at all without Vis, insanely good teachers or books written pretty much specifically for you. Making you go on an adventure (which you won't get XP from) to be able to spend the XP you already have is just adding insult to injury.
Low Might characters sure, I guess. They have their own problems. My problem is that one of their problems is that they could make the critical build mistake of increasing their Might, something they obviously should want to do but are discouraged mechanically at every turn.
Even with Mark's system it is still just going to be better to be a 10 Might Companion over a 20 Might Magus or even better a 5 Might Grog. I can get 4 transformations for the cost of 1 with vis and can still practice like callen mentioned. Plus since I have to go adventuring to spend the transformation XP I'll have a lot of down time where I'll be getting XP other ways. So it will be real nice to get even a few XP from them per season. The Redcap with magic items could beat me in what ever our mutual competency is but at least I have MR!
Been working with One Shot's Familiar idea. At first I was thinking of having it be just one chord forged to the order but now I'm thinking making it 3 could be better. I sort of wanted them to be themed but I can't really do that and have them go straight to Might. I was thinking maybe having Gold be Might that could be traded for Powers, Silver be Mental stats that can be traded for mental Qualities, and Bronze be Physical stats that can be traded for Physical Qualities. I think it might work because Might and powers scale directly, the more Might I have the more pen and mana I have for powers. So spending Might for powers only would be pretty ok. I think if i did that then the improving of the chords could be made a ritual rather than a seasonal activity for a magus, making it a lot more accessible (obviously the ritual couldn't be done by a might creature, some blah about acclimation).
Yup. That's why I made the house rule I made. Since you then have to increase Might to gain Qualities, low Might isn't better than high Might.
I like what you've been working on. Just the earliest incarnations were too easy to abuse. I do like some of the age-related ideas, as we tend to think of ancient dragons being more powerful than younger ones, for example. The age-related ideas, along with deprivation for not being in a sufficient Aura, may handle that nicely.
I would be cautious about allowing magi to provide too much of a benefit without the Familiar Bond. Otherwise the Familiar Bond loses its value for the Familiar. I like retaining Transformation for Familiars so that they mostly just gain on the power end of things by forging the Familiar Bond. They should gain for likely sacrificing immortality and giving up a lot of autonomy. Gaining immunity to Acclimation and Ability advancement without Might penalties does it, but if they're also penalized by not being able to do Transformation, that's a lot more sacrifice without any more gain. And then if you go a step further and allow magi to help a lot already, there is even less gain by forging the Familiar Bond.
Ya, I don't like familiars getting transformation. You can enchant the familiar bond, If i want my familiar to breathe fire I can just do that, no more rules required.
My group made an acclimation system to allow for partial resistance from several sources. So you could have time in an aura and cast your powers on mages in the same year and have them both contribute instead of it being an all or nothing thing. We had talked about the ageing system being triggered by your over-capping your acclimation by some amount. So it wouldn't just be time based and it wouldn't be just vis based.
The familiar bond doesn't have to be that beneficial for the critter it just has to be more beneficial for the magus. The order would stop bringing in Errant Familiars or what ever if they didn't have a steady supply of familiars. I was already planning on allowing them to act as normal lab assistants instead of free ones like familiars and their chords don't benefit a magus who holds them.
In truth I was writing a whole narrative for this new Errant Familiar thing to be for Familiars who's masters have died, which would clean all that up pretty concretely.
My point is that many Familiars are already intelligent, and why would an intelligent being choose to severely cripple themselves for no gain? If the intelligent familiars are better off doing a different thing than being a Familiar, then most likely they would choose not to become a familiar.
Yes, if you get rid of the likely loss of immortality as well, being a familiar isn't nearly so crippling.
That means that the effects gained have to be either low level or within the magus' area of speciality.
The familiar bond is also limited in the type of enchantments you can do - only ones that affect the magus or their familiar or both. Theoretically you can get round that by using the "given an animal a magical ability" guideline, but that's a) not very well defined (as a recent thread discussed) and b) means you have to be good at MuAn(Vi) in addition to whatever other requisites are required.
That said, whilst I've seen it in character creation I don't think I've seen a familiar use transformation to gain a new power in actual play, so banning it may not have all that big an impact in actual practice.
grin Your 'every bit of that is going overboard' and 'theoretical optimization' is my recommended approach, especially for players new to the game.
Having a Casting Total in some TeFo >= 25, and in some Focus >= 50 introduces a player to important aspects of the game, in a way that is useful rather than theoretical:
A reasonable range of fatigueless sponts at a useful magnitude (5 for a TeFo, 10 within Focus.)
A pleasantly wide range of useful fatiguing sponts.
Access to good formulaic spells within one entire Form and one entire Technique.
Some real power.
Niche protection, based on choice of TeFo and Focus. Every character can choose the same Virtues yet still play very differently.
Real Flambeau can incinerate a Faerie right out of Gauntlet.
OK, I just did a whole 5 page, ground up, rebuild of the system. I think it will work. At this point I will be happy with Low-Might Creatures took a nerf and Mythic Companions fall between Mythic Redcaps and Magi.
Plus the Might/Qualities were a double-enhancing power increase.