Multi arrow

I need som comments on a spell, that one of my players want to invent. And i dont like that the spelle lvl is only lvl 5.

Is the spell made within the rules?

Spell: Artillery Shot
Forms: Cr(Re)He(Te,An)
Base: Level2: Create a processed plant product = Arrow body
Range: Touch (+1)
Duration: Momentary (0)
Target: Individual (0)
Number: *100 (+2)
Original arrow is nonmagical & aimed
Re prereq: Finesse roll to hit a number of targets.
Te prereq: Steel tipped arrows.
An prereq: Feathers.
Comments: The idee is that the arrow i copied when shot from a bow.

Just such a spell was already discussed at some length in another thread a couple months back...

Here it is...

That said, the spell you have submitted above does not actually conform to the RAW. To create treated AND processed Herbam products (not simply usable finished raw materials) you must add 2 magnitudes to begin with (starting at base 1, so final base 3). Furthermore, unless one plans to use vis at the casting of the spell, a Momentary Duration will not suffice, the created arrows would simply blink in and back out of existance before reaching their target(s). One saves themselves such worries by making the Duration Diameter as per the effect previously discussed in the thread mentioned above.

Thirdly, For an added Rego effect I would personally argue that 1. An added magnitude is required precisely because the spell indicates the multiple new arrows are also aimed. If they are Aimed by Rego and not the Archer's inherent bowmanship, they also become magical projectiles (like it or not) and thus subject to MR.

Hmm sorry, Edited to revise my previous conclusion based on rereading of the above thread in which I already suggested a much higher level solution. However you go about it it should definitely be a minimum of level 20 (without added modifiers for larger numbers of arrows, but should (per the thread) have a +2 Group Target modifier. Unless, that is, the intention is to aim all the arrows at one lone individual.

No, Flam, and as SG it's important that you should be able to see that. As B points out, the math for that effect overlooks several parts of the rules.

Let's look at it a step at a time...

I'm not sure whether you want to Rego the arrows at the target, or create them and then shoot them- I'll touch on both.

As B pointed out, if they're "Rego'd" at the target, they are magical.

There are multiple examples of Rego ranged attacks that are "Momentary" in duration, so that isn't a problem. That duration isn't "instantaneous", but just long enough to zip "from here to there" (See, for example, "Piercing Shaft of Wood", Mu(Re)He 10, P 137). Note that such a ranged effect, regardless of Form or shape, would hit and then immediately vanish, so would be clearly magical, but the damage (hopefully) is done.

(Actually, a nice magical effect- scores of missile flying to the targets, then disolving, leaving only the wounds... that'd unnerve most peasants.)

As far as the "+1 Treated" vs "+2 treated and processed", that's a matter of opinion - on the one hand, an arrow shaft does not seem to be that far from a straight stick, but on the other it must be perfectly straight (hardly something found in most naturally occurring sticks) and then be notched and grooved for the head/fletching. Me, I'd say +2, since it is far more complex than just a dowel.

Here's the big dealbreaker. When using multiple Arts you (almost always?) use the highest Base of those combinations.

o Treated and Processed Wood product: CrHe: Base 1, +2 = Base 3
o Fletching: CrAn: Base 5
o Steel Arrowhead: CrTe: Base 5*
(* And that's another +1 if "unnatural", and I'd argue that weapons-grade steel is "unnatural", compared to black iron*, for Base 10. Of course, otoh, how many archers could afford steel tips? Maybe Iron is the norm? Dunno)

So, since the CrTe is the highest (or CrAn, but... nah...), then as is this defaults to a CrTe spell. Thus, imo, the math for just creating a realistic, steel-tipped arrow would look something like this:

(CrTe Base 10, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter, free Req's An & He = CrTe20)
(Or CrTe 25 for 10 arrows, CrTe 30 for 100, tho' firing 100 arrows within a "Diameter" is a different problem.)

If you want to Rego those to the target, you can replace the magnitude for Duration with one for Rego. (Tho' it's not clear they would then travel at speed- that's a house-rule question as to whether one magnitude of "Rego" moves wood faster than a walk. See Guidelines and other Forms for analogy. ReHe Base 3 "controls an amount of wood", but not particularly fast, usually. See also The Central Rule, and consider the future effects of your ruling in your Saga. But if we go with a Base 5 or 10 for the entire spell, that's less of an issue.)

So, 100 realistic arrows for Level 30. Ouch.

To reduce the 6th magnitude, you could define the arrowhead as iron (now Base 5), which is not ~as~ good, but still clearly pretty dangerous, especially since it doesn't matter if it dulls after the first hit. As SG, I might give this a -1 penalty to regular damage vs metal/rigid armors, or something like. CrTe 25 - getting better.

To drop further would require reducing both the CrTe and CrAn base effects (both Base 5), and have some sort of missile with a flint point (CrTe Stone Base 3) and magically fletched from all from wood/wood products, to drop back to you original CrHe Base 3, for a 3rd magnitude final effect. This "arrow" would definitely look more magical (not a problem is it's going to disappear at the end of the duration, really), and not do nearly as much damage as a metal-tipped missile, but the math would then look something like what you have:

(CrHe(Te) Base 3, +1 Touch, +1 (Rego or Diameter) + (number multipliers))

This would mean that 10 flint/wood arrows would be a CrHe(Te) 10, for 10 arrows, 15 for 100, each doing maybe... oh, I dunno... d+4 damage (with "metal/rigid" armors doubled?). That's a LOT of wounds! Me, I might bump that by one more magnitude to provide enough Rego to move wood at the speed an arrow flies, 'cause I feel that's still a bit low, but it's certainly more in the ballpark.

If you used Rego, a Finesse roll would still be needed to hit multiple targets, but not if they all were targeted at just 1 victim. Or, if given Diam duration, fired from a bow as "normal".

That'd be my spin on it.

However, remember The Central Rule (p 111 - yes, it's really there!) - that if the SG/troupe don't like the final level of a spell, raise/lower it to suit the Saga. You're the SG, don't let the rules push you around. 8)

"Unnatural" as used in the above context refers to a state which a given material could not naturally assume. Thus your conclusion that weapons grade steel is unnatural is not in line with the RAW. That said, the issue here is falls more under the rule for the nature of requisites (as part of the necessary effect or an added effect.

Given that, all the requisites for the creation of the arrows themselves are necessary for the spell to have its intended Creo effect and thus do not add greater magnitudes to that part of the spell. The Rego effect, however WOULD be an additional effect and thus of added magnitude.

Thanks for all the comments.

Sorry I didn’t look the forum for an older topic


I knew that some of the rules have been overlooked, but was not sure about all of them.


The idea was that the spell would copy the arrow shortly after it was fired from the bow, and then multiply in the air an shortly after that hitting the arrear.
But i can see the point in making the Duratation Diameter.

The spells shouldn’t be target because the intention was to hit an arrear, and then hopefully it would hit something.

All in all I have the same opinion as you, but you helped me clarify some of the rules.


If the intention of the spell is to hit an area then scrap the Rego req and up the Target to +2 Group (an absolute requirement to target an area).

I would say that a momentary duration should suffice for this purpose. (even if those arrows sometimes fly a few seconds)
IMO the momentary duration should be used when it is one action: creating a spear while (or slightly before) attacking should be good enough to land a single hit with it. Momentary would not be work if you create that spear, wait a minute, and then attack. (for a full explanation of this 'tempo-rule' consult your local fencing meastro)

I do however, know that my troupe will probably not agree with this explanation in most cases. So, like always, the troupe/SG rules it in or out.

It gets even better in the large scale of a battlefield:
You get to fire volley after volley of arrows into your opponents army... AND THEY CAN'T FIRE THEM BACK!

This is a most valuable advantage over any mundane opponents, whose ammunition WILL come to an end eventually.

Is it possible to copy an Item, like the Arrow with the art Muto, instead of making a whole new arrow with Creo?

not to my knowledge. The Raw seems to imply that making replicas of things is a Cr activity. Mu would however let you change the arrow into a full fledged Ballisti sized projectile which would effectively gut whomever it hit.

Change two arrows into rabbits for duration moon and they'll have a bunch of little rabbits that will turn into darts when the spell expires?

Thats the best spell idea I have seen in a longe time.. :slight_smile:

Optimist - you'll only end up with a lot of splinters...

Nah, toothpicks!! Now we know how they were invented in the first place!!!

They are nonetheless, as they are created by magic :wink:
A magical copy of an arrow, created through Creo magics, is magical, and will be resisted, rego magic or not.

hmmm, Id take issue with that Fixer. An object Created with Cr magic is as real and natural as one crafted from earthly materials. Insofar as it only has a momentary duration (I still prefer diameter for anything battle related) only means that they have not been permanently rooted to the mundane realm with vis. It is no more magical without use of vis than with (and logically should be more magical if made permanent with vis which it clearly would not be according to my reading of the RAW.)

IMO, if the propulsion, which provides the force of the weapon, or some aspect pertaining to the amount of damage coveyed (unnatural sharpness, other fancy effects such as flame or poinson, etc.) is magically sustained then the weapon is subject to MR, otherwise it is a natural weapon, wielded/propelled naturally and doing its natural amount of damage and should not be stopped by MR.


Hmmm, so you're reading "unnatural" as "magical" rather than "not found in nature". That's perfectly reasonable, just not how I read it, tho' you are making me examine that interpretatioin.

Since there is no explanation of what "un/natural" means, and no examples in the text, one really can't demonstrate which interpretation, in fact, it does "refer" to (altho' we each are "certain" that one is right :wink: ). In context, it can be read either way, imo. For me, the analogy is to Herbem, the "treated and processed" magnitudes. I'll grant that "iron" is natural (even tho' that ore takes significant refining), but "steel", having the qualities of a spring & etc, is, I'd suggest, not quite the same. But that's just me.

(And these Requisites don't "add" to the final level, but change the beginning Base Level to the highest of those combinations necessary to achieve the effect - I think we agree on that, but I want to be clear for everyone reading. If the CrFo Base can't achieve all the results, for every Form, then it needs to be raised so it can, and lesser or equal Base levels of other Forms just come along for a free ride.)

You're the Storyguide - keep a straight face, admit nothing. :wink:

The time it takes a mundane arrow to reach its target should (with rare exceptions) be covered by a "momentary" duration, I think that's clear*. However, a problem arises with Range of the spell, regardless if the mage/archer casts it, or it's an object, say the bow. If it's "Touch", then the arrow has little/no speed when the spell is cast; if you cast it after firing, then the Range needs to be Voice (or Sight), not Touch!

(* An English longbow could shoot 300 yards/meters, no problem. I don't know the "muzzle velocity" of an arrow, but I doubt if that'd take much more than 6 seconds, if that.)

Also (and this is TOTALLY up for debate!) is the question of copying the velocity of that flying arrow. If you had a Creo spell (Range = Sight) that copied a flying arrow that you could see... would the second one then also be speeding along next to it? Or would it, being magical, simply stop where it is, having no Rego element to speed it along? (I'd go with the former, but...)

It's pretty clear that without Rego, all the arrows would be heading in about the same direction. Arrows aren't perfectly accurate, so even magical ones would "spread out" just a little- a nice spread pattern is not a bad thing, kinda like a shotgun of arrows - ouch. So, sending them to entirely "different" targets would be more problematic, and definitely require some Rego going on.

By your reasoning Boxer Pillum of Fire or incantation of lightening isn't resisted.

If you don't use vis you don't have the power to make something non-magical.

(oops, ignore)


I see your argument Agnar, however I would differentiate an intangible element (which is incapable of naturally sustaining itself divorced from its natural source (i.e. Fire requiring wood or some flammable object to sustain it and lightning requiring a storm) from a magically produced replica of a self sustaining object. A PoF or Lightning bolt from one's hand could never be argued to be a natural thing, an arrow in flight can and is.

Secondly, there is to my mind a nuance - if only in theory - between a spell which in and of itself does damage (PoF, BoAF, Lightning, any direct PeCo spell etc...) and one which creates an object which has the potential to do damage depending on how it is used. Simply creating an arrow would harm noone, that the arrow is created in flight is incidental and thus although being the product of a spell is not in itself a spell hitting a target directly, but only indirectly.

If said arrow was otherwise empowered to fly at, never miss, or do greater damage than normal to its target, then yes MR should come into play.

Hope that clarifies my thinking. :wink: