Multiple Simultaneous and Devastating Sources of Warping

We're now accepting that is incorrect, right? It was not rolled "in order." Those were simultaneous rolls. The rolls are 2, 3, 5, 6, 14. There is no order to them. So what happens to the demon duke? If your answer relies on the order of those rolls, then we're in non-canonical territory.

I'd say that the rules are not clear on the issue.
As I keep saying, serializing, i.e. giving an arbitrary order to "simultaneous" instantaneous events and resolving each fully before applying the next, is a way to make ruling easy in the absence of specific rules of a specific case.

Without serialization, the results of a multicast the Enigma's Gift become tricky to adjudicate.
Without serialization, multicasting a CrIg spell that engulfs the target into a bonfire should not cause damage multiple times, which I think runs contrary to how most troupes play it.

If you apply that logic, then 5 multicast copies of a Level 10 Demon's Eternal Oblivion that all penetrate, should bring a Might 39 Demon down to Might 29, as each spell sees a Might 39 Demon and tells its Might to go down to 29.

If you apply that logic, then 5 copies of a Level 10 Demon's Eternal Oblivion that all penetrate, should bring a Might 39 Demon down to Might 29, as each spell sees a Might 39 Demon and tells his Might to go down to 29.

That doesn't follow.
Each DEO strips off 10 Might, so being hit by 5 strips off a total of 50 Might. It doesn't matter what your Might was before. On the other hand, for a ReCo movement, it does matter where you are when the spell moves you. There's a difference between a quantitative and a qualitative change.

Let's assume Bigby's Shove has range Sight, rather than Voice.
Then I see absolutely no difference between pushing a target downward 100 paces 5 times, and pushing a Demon's Might downward 10 Might 5 times.

If you serialize, you end up with the target 500 paces down, and the demon 50 Might down.
If you assume that each spell acts on the target as if the other spells did not exist, and, assuming the outcome of each spell independently would coincide with the others, declare that the outcome, you end up with the target 100 paces down, and the demon 10 Might down.

How much clearer could this be?

All copies of the spell are cast simultaneously

They are not cast sequentially. They are cast "simultaneously." Any method of ruling with serialization of casting disagrees with this, right? So now we're talking house rules.

No. That does not follow at all logically. Remember, Rego isn't movement. It's repositioning. That ReCo spell is basically saying "I put you there," five times. The PeVi effect causes a loss. So it's a loss, another loss, another, etc. all at the same time. That's 5 losses, and we have confirmation of this with loss of Fatigue in canon.

There are two types of house rules.
The first explicitly contradict RAW. The second resolve ambiguity in the RAW.

I claim we are in the second territory. Barring some specific, explicit cases, "simultaneous" events have no RAW way to be resolved, because the RAW only tell you how to resolve one event at a time.

A standard technique in systems design to resolve these issues is serialization: to rule that mechanically, simultaneous stuff is resolved as if it happened sequentially in some order. This is no more arbitrary, but much more effective, than saying "Ok, for spells, first I check if each Penetrates individually. Then, if the spell is one that changes position, the effect is deemed idempotent, i.e. no matter how many times it is applied, it is applied to the original position. If the effect instead changes Might, the effect is deemed pluripotent as long as it is conceivably commutative, i,e, it is applied cumulatively. Etc. etc."

I don't know. This is stuff I do for work every day, and it seems pretty obvious, but I'm probably biased.

"Move the target 50 paces in one direction", to me seems repositioning, and frankly semantically identical to "adjust Might downwards by 5".

So you're saying casting "in order" and "serialized" (your words) don't contradict "simultaneously"? When I look up these terms I get things like

a sequence of key/value pairs in insertion order

for "serialized" and

arranging events sequentially based on their occurrence or progression

for the temporal version of "in order." How do these not contradict "simultaneously," for which I find

at the same time : concurrently

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Sure. But consider that the rules for multiple casting are quite specifically asking you to do them simultaneously, explicitly even. Do you know why it says "simultaneously" even though it didn't used to? Because I discussed the issue of fatigue loss and the like when multiple casting with David, suggesting it could help to provide clarification over if these are sequential or truly simultaneous, and David wanted to make it clear that it is not happen sequentially, that they are all truly at the same time. So he changed the wording to make sure it wouldn't be mistaken for being sequential. Noting that the line editor specifically has tried to clarify that we should not serialize the casting here, it seems pretty non-canonical to decide we're supposed to serialize here.

I'll reply just once more, because it seems there are communication issues that I am apparently failing to address.

Ultimately, the application of game rules in wargames, rpgs etc. is a sequence of transformations of the state space of the game, each meant to model how an elementary event transforms the game world: you apply them one after the other, with the implicit understanding that you apply them in the same "order" as they happen in the game world, and one transformation must be completely applied before the next starts being applied.

There are times, however, when the "order" in which events, for which you have individual resolution mechanics, happen in the game world is not clear or does not exist - e.g. if events X and Y are simultaneous. In these cases, a mechanically rigorous set of rules will explicitly tell you what to do. The simplest, safest, cleanest solution is to tell you some way to serialize the events, i.e. to tell you that the outcome will be the same as if the transformation modelling X happened first, and that modelling Y happened next, or viceversa. It's very clean, because you do not need to introduce a new mechanic to handle simultaneity, except perhaps to decide the serialization order where it matters - many initiative systems ultimately do this. In this sense, note that when one opponent attacks another, and the other then attacks the first in the same combat round, the two actions do not really happen in completely disjoint time intervals: the "second" attacker is probably starting to swing his mace before the "first" attacker has fully completed his rapier lunge.

A more complicated approach is to define for X-and-Y-together a new transformation, different from that of first-X-then-Y and also from first Y-then-X. This is sometimes more satisfying, as it allows for a richer set of outcomes (such as two opponents simultaneously slaying each other, which in many combat mechanics is not possible). So you often find it in rules-heavy (sub)games, such as Exalted Combat. The crux, however, is that any rigorous mechanical system will tell you how to handle simultaneous events, either with an ad-hoc rule, or by serializing the mechanical resolution.

And unfortunately, Ars Magica does not try to be a rigorous mechanical system - in fact, it actively eschews such rigour in favour of a more "whatever feels right" attitude. And with multi-casting it tells you that stuff happens simultaneously, but gives you explicit (and still a bit fuzzy) X-and-Y-together rules to handle such simultaneity only on the caster's side. In this context, what happens on the target's side is mechanically undefined, because the only resolution mechanics we are given are for non-simultaneous events. This means that any mechanical resolution of such simultaneity on the target side is left to the troupe: there is no canonical answer in the RAW. I hope this is abundantly clear.

In this situation then, in my opinion, the safest and simplest solution is the same as always: serialize in the absence of explicit simultaneity mechanics ("first roll A and B and in the order decided by Player 1, then adjust C, then ..."). Which does not mean to assume that the events are not simultaneous in the game world. It just means to assume that the mechanical outcome is the same as if they happened one after the other. Sure, the result might appear a little in contrast with how one envisions what's happening: as I said, engulfing a target in five simultaneous, identical, co-located bonfires should not really cause any more damage than engulfing him in one. But at least resolution is generally clear and simple, and in most cases, not that much coarser an approximation than what you'd get with some ad-hoc rules.

Nothing is ever truly simultaneous. They may be clse enough together to not matter, but they are not truly simultaneous. In modern terms a shotgun firing 9 rounds of shot and a machine gun firing 9 shots at 300 rounds per second are both firing 9 rounds which are functionally simultaneous. Even the shots from the shotgun will impact at some variation of interval based on their path- it might be a difference in picoseconds, but it does exist.

What does matter is what happens next. If the skin from the first shot has not even begun to ripple before the second shot hits from the shotgun then that might matter a fair bit compared to a spike in blood pressure from the first round when the second round from the machinegun hits. This is the difference between order of resolution for multiple "simultaneous" effects in the game, only using spells instead of bullet- is it a simultaneous "burst" like a machine gun or a simultaneous "spread" like a shotgun.

Your DEO example hit the problem right on the head.

  • How are you supposed to serialize them?
  • Should they all be applied independently, with only the good one hitting?
  • Should you pick an undefined order and add the random result?

Adding 50% seems the same as multiplying by 1.5 until you do it multiple times.

  • +50 +50 +50 +50 = +200% {all applied to base}
  • *1.5 *1.5 *1.5 *1.5 ~= *5 {each applied consecutively}

So which one of those 2 spells were cast, the +50 or the *1.5?
I believe the Rego spell is a projection. You pick a spot and say "move there". If you cast it with D:Diameter, the target will always return there for the duration. You could design the spell as a "move away" to get the opposite result. Shades of the T:Room dual case.

If a spell could cause simultaneous Wounds, I would hate to compute the previous Wound penalty for each and adjust the damage accordingly. For that case, they would all hit the original target and all apply the damage afterward, one at a time.

It seems to me that parallel implementation followed by cumulative application is natural.
One might argue that magic being magic, each kind of multicast is applied differently. So it's not only YSMV, but also YMMV.

I get what you're saying. Akin to what you said about working with serialization, I've had to work professionally dealing with multiple scenarios when serialization causes problems with things where there needs to be simultaneity. Here things are a bit buried, so I felt I had to start back at the beginning, since what you say about simultaneity of casting being clear and what happens in the results not being clear is true and is ultimately the issue in the OP.

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So, I think we're now in agreement that the casting itself happens simultaneously. That's what bothered even you about some of what you wrote when you weren't so sure about falling unconscious and continuing to cast spells in that state. The casting rolls all happen at the same time, not in the new state of Fatigue after having cast previous ones. You just get walloped by massive Fatigue loss suddenly afterward rather than continuing casting while unconscious. It's not even hard to simulate this: just roll the dice at the same time. Using silveroak's analogies, it must be fired like a shotgun (or a depleted-uranium armor-piercing shell or another single-firing equivalent) rather than like a machine gun, as a jam (falling unconscious) with one bullet (spell) doesn't stop the others as would happen with sequential firing.

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Now, let's move on to the second step: penetration. Does this need to be timed with the casting (simultaneous) or the final effect (up for debate, hence the OP)? We can actually discover that it must coincide with the casting. Why? Confidence. Confidence can be spent during the casting, and for each spell individually since each copy's casting is calculated individually. Why does this matter? Because you get to choose to spend the Confidence based on success, the question of whether it's penetrating or not. So the determination of penetration is happening at the moment of casting since it's part of the casting roll/total or we get a contradiction with the rules; and we have already established the book says the casting is happening "simultaneously." Thus to avoid contradictions with canon, ordered penetration doesn’t work. Only one DEO should penetrate in that example.

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Now we can dig more seriously into the OP's issue. Even if they penetrate at the same time, we still need to figure out how to apply the effects. You're right that there are some scenarios like your fire example, that make figuring stuff out trickier. But your sequential method isn't some cure-all for them. Consider creating a fire surrounding someone for a round a multiple casting it. How does one arriving a tiny moment before another rather than simultaneously actually fix this? It's still being surrounded by fire for a round. Of course, maybe it’s just more thoroughly covered, as magic doesn’t use coverage rules, and it make sense. So, as we can see, neither handles these scenarios, nor many others, with clarity. Sometimes one is simpler, sometimes the other. If you doubt the sequential method can screw things up, consider that the Chariot of Zeus used sequentially with simultaneous multiple casting can end up with invalid choices without being aware of it when casting.

The little guidance we have doesn’t tell us much: we know for sure that if you use PeIg to chill a target enough for the target to lose a Fatigue level, multiple casting will stack. Interestingly, this is actually akin to your surrounding fire. The whole target (Individual, not Part) is chilled to lose Fatigue from one of the spells, but they still lose more Fatigue. Maybe they’re just chilled a bit further, which might be akin to more full coverage with fire?

Tugdual’s point is interesting as well. Let’s say someone rolls 5d10 (stress dice). They did their spell casting simultaneously as the rules directed. How is the order now chosen? Do you say they have to re-roll because they followed what the rulebook says? It does bother me that a method might say there is a problem with following the rulebook perfectly, even if it does make some scenarios easier.

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So each troupe must choose. But that choice should be made knowing that any spells that have penetrated have penetrated at the same time. So in answer to the OP, all of these spells have penetrated the target mage, but it is unclear how you handle the results. Even if they’ve all targeted sequentially extremely quickly, does the mage really have time to make a decision about resisting each one individually anyway, as you have a tiny bit of time before heading into Twilight to make the choice? So just making them sequential doesn’t even answer this question. With 5x +5 Warping Points, it’s surely one of: deal 25 Warping Points; deal with 5 Warping Points 5 times before potentially entering Twilight; or deal with 5 Warping Points repeatedly until you enter Twilight, at which point the others don’t do anything. Make your choice being fully informed.

Exactly, and it makes huge differences.

Making it sequential makes multicast might strippers much more dangerous. Sequential means the magi on strike 1 of Enigma's gift can choose twilight. Admittedly I can't see anyone choosing to spend 2 minutes, and take the follow up 4 Enigma's gift, but I digress from the point.

Simultaneous, so no matter what, there's 25 warping point from Enigma's Gift is a terrifying prospect.

I personally prefer sequential, however, others may differ.

Does it? We know the effects stack either way following the single example spell, and we know penetration is simultaneous either way because it must be tied to the simultaneous casting. So does in matter?

This is something I mentioned above. It doesn't imply that. You have to make an additional decision. Does the mage have time to choose to resist or not between them, or do they arrive in too rapid succession? So sequential doesn't even answer this; if you choose sequential, you must also decide how rapidly sequential.

No, we do not know that. This is the whole point of the discussion between sequential and simultaneous.How simultaneous is a multicast spell? Mechanically how should it be resolved?

Example - a 5 point might stripper multicast 5 times and an 11 is required on the dice to succeed.

The rolls are 8, 6, 7, 4, 3.

Simultaneous, one could use confidence on the 8, so one succeeds, all others fail.

If sequential, spend confidence on the 8, success, target is now 6, another success target is 1, etc. 25 might stripped instead of 5.

Agreed. The existence of confidence points, the existence of fast cast defence, implies an inherent split second decision making in the system.

Different scenario!!! The issue here is about entering Twilight and then being unaffected by things. You don't cease to be affected by Fatigue loss after you lose some Fatigue, from damage after taking some damage, or from losing Might after losing some Might.

Well, we know for sure those rolls are simultaneous; the book is explicit about this, specifically to prevent us from ordering those casting rolls and running into contradictions with Fatigue issues. The only real question is if the affects after they penetrate are simultaneous or not.

I think you missed some points above. The big debate is the ordering of the effects, which is not stated. We know there is no ordering to the casting, and in order to not get a contradiction because of Confidence use penetration is also not ordered.

The issue here is that it was vague before, and the question was asked about ordering or simultaneity. The language was changed specifically to tell us that it is not ordered and is simultaneous. So claiming it's just colloquial rather than literal would be undoing the specific reason the wording was changed to say "simultaneously." You're free to house-rule it, but canonically it is literal, explaining how you can end up spending losing more Fatigue levels than you have and still finish casting them all, while you would fall unconscious before then if they were sequential.

You keep using the words we know. No matter how often you do, it does not make it true. Point to me the page number, or you can cut and paste in the part of the rule book that makes it crystal clear.

Multiple Casting

You can cast several copies of a single mastered spell so that it affects more people, objects, or areas (as applicable) than normal. A single target may also be affected more than once. You may cast a number of additional copies of the spell equal to or less than your Mastery Score.

All copies of the spell are cast simultaneously, and the action counts as a single casting for the purposes of Concentration and similar concerns.

I mean, come on!

As Tugdual quoted, it is explicit they are cast simultaneously. That's both in the errata and on p.226 of DE. If you choose to not have them simultaneous, that's fine, but that's your non-canonical choice. But, yes, we absolutely know for sure the casting is simultaneous.

Now, how do we know the timing on penetration must be simultaneous, too? As part of casting you roll. You have to check penetration before choosing Confidence. You have to choose Confidence before determining Fatigue loss. Fatigue loss is part of the casting, just the tail end of it. So we know that penetration is determined during these simultaneous events and so must also be simultaneous.

What we don't know is if the effects after penetration are supposed to be evaluated simultaneously or not. That is the only real question here once we've read the multiple casting rules and remembered how penetration and Confidence are handled.

Now, if you want to look into the decision, read the errata and you can see the change being made. You can also see a change being made for vis spending, as that was not stated before. People generally assumed it was paid separately like Fatigue, but David was clarifying points here and so made that explicit, too. I know David ran these errata by people in 2021: Final Check on Current Errata but I don't remember where the discussion leading up to it was. I think it was in the big thread on unclear things that David created, but I can't find that thread any longer.

I think on the question of making a decision it doesn't matter how exactly you model the "simultaneous" effect- to re-use my metaphor it doesn't matter whether it is a shotgun or a machinegun, you either get out of the way or you don't.

At this point I'm thinking you roll to resist (or not) twilight and if you fail more than once you simply take the worst result for time and then stack the benefits and costs of the various successes and failures- you have just gone through a particularly dynamic and intense episode of twilight as all those effects happen simultaneously.