Not laster beams, since I doubt anyone can think of that in the setting., However, breath fire or make things explode looking at them is something that would be easy enough to see in ME (thoise would not use Muto, but hey)
The problem with muto is that it tends to mark you as a monster. I would NEVER trust again a guy that transformed his hands into dragon claws, regardless of his gentle gift. Except for that smallish detail (do not use much Muto in a social setting, kiddos) it is a fgairly cool art. One of ourr players had a Muto expert in a previous saga (diedne magic), and he could do all kinds of fancy stuff just out of the gauntlet. Unfortunately the saga took a weird turn and we finished it before she could develop the full potential of the art. But yes, it can be powerful.
I already gave you one RAW spell example of a spell doing the "unthinkable". p142.
Will a normal person in the setting think "oh wow you can make fire into ice, cool"? Wether its possible to Creo ice is utterly irrelevant. Because what you claimed was: But you could never Muto your eyes to shoot laser beams as you cannot know any natural or mythical example of laser.
And thats actually rather bullshit as well. There´s enough mythical stuff in existance that some of them could be labeled "laser" just as well, actually MORE likely probably than fire into ice because i cant recall any such stories.
So? If i MuCo someone to become ridiculously strong, thats an unnatural property.
Attempting to get back on track with the OP (although I'm not touching upon the negative stat changes), I'm posting my version of Muto Corpus based temporary stat boosting spells, that is going to be used in our Saga in the coming sessions. One of the players in our group asked me to help him with designing a spell that boosted his stats, to put into the new Talisman made by (and for) his Bjornaer Magus. Putting all questions aside as to whether a Bjornaer would actually appreciate a spell like this (since they don't seem to respect Shapechanging as it is inferior/blunt compared to the mystery of the Heartbeast) i designed some general guidelines for him, as well as a couple of sample spells. Please note that our GM is very generous in this matter, and i did my best to keep the effects of the spells down to maintain game balance (compared to Creo Corpus/Mentem guidelines) â thus the âcreativeâ interpretations of the guidelines
Ability of the Beast
Muto Corpus (Animal) 30
Alters some features of the target to match with those of a specific animal without changing his shape. This provides a bonus of +2 to a single specific Characteristic, up to a maximum of the Characteristic of the Animal in question (use statistics for an average specimen â see Mundane Beasts). A fairly discrete feature of the given animal that relates to the boosted Characteristic becomes part of the human features while affected by the spell, which makes the target seem âoffâ or âqueerâ in the eyes of most people. This incurs a -3 penalty to all social skills when interfering with mundanes and animals, and even some Magi look down on this as being âa bit to freakyâ.
Base level: 10 â Turn a human into a land animal (use this guideline no matter what animal you choose: as you do not gain the abilities of flight, water breathing etc. this guideline is used to represent a change into something that is less âunnaturalâ than the level 20 guidelines)
Range: Personal
Duration: Sun (+2)
Target: Part (+1)
Adjustment: Unnatural (mixing two shapes) (+1)
So how does this balance with the guidelines for Cre Corpus and Creo Mentem that starts at base 35? First of all, it doesnât. Secondly, it still doesnât â but there are some factors one might keep in mind that helps limit the misuse of these new spells, and that makes them incapable of replacing the Creo Corpus/Mentem spells. The spells differ in many ways, but here are some of the more important ones:
The new spells must use Animal as a requisite, which makes the spells harder to invent, cast etc. This especially limits the bonuses for Magical Foci. On the other hand one doesnât need to worry about Mentem.
The spells can theoretically go to any max without adding extra levels to the guidelines. These max Characteristics are limited by those of the animal in question, however, so the Magus must know an appropriate animal in order to make full effect of the spell (and it prevents Characters from being 'Superheroes' with +5 to all Characteristics, as they are unlikely to find relevant animals for those kind of scores). This also means that some Characteristics are less likely to be boosted than others (such as Presence). Also, the Characteristics of Communication and Intelligence are not improvable with this type of spell.
More castings of the same spell do not stack as they all use the original Ability as a point of departure. This is a big difference compared to the Creo spells.
The character adopts a feature of the animal in question, related to the bonus, and suffers -3 on social rolls as a result of this. Furthermore, spells that are made permanent (or is used too frequent/too long) might have a permanent influence on the Character. This could be through a physical feature (much like that experienced when investing bond powers into Familiar-bonds), or by obtaining their habits or most dominating Personality Trait. These effects could also be provoked by botches.
This also means that only the most reckless, or already heavily Warped/Familiar-feature-affected, would invent a Permanent spell of this type. These effects also make it much less appropriate for a permanent "business version", with ring target â where people pay to get stat boosts.
Sample spells
Quickness of the Cat
MuCo(An) 30
Personal, Sun, Ind
Alters the reflexes of the caster slightly so that his reactions seem to come from pure instinct, incurring a +2 bonus to Quickness (maximum +4). This change has a tendency to make the caster more jumpy, resulting in a -3 penalty to Social Abilities. Many regular casters have been known to develop a slight hissing response when disturbed. Lakhaterr of Tytalus arcs his back upon finishing casting the spell, as a display of indifference that usually marks his spells.
(Base 10, +2 Sun, +1 Part, +1 Unnatural)
Perception of the Falcon
MuCo(An) 30
Touch, Concentration, Ind
Alters the senses of the caster slightly so that his powers of Perception is improved, incurring a +2 bonus to Perception (maximum +3). This change often leaves the eyes with a slightly unerring yellow hue, which results in a -3 penalty to all rolls involving Social Abilities. In Grinvold of Ex-Miscellanea's version he moves his hands across his scalp, as if to remove a falconâs hood covering his vision. Grinvolds sigils and spell flavours are always very practical in character.
(Base 10, +1 Touch, +1 Concentration, +1 Part, +1 Unnatural)
...I'll let you know how this turns out for us, when we've tested it a bit.
I think if you are doing animal feature related boosts then using the average stat for the animal as the modifier (adjusted for size if the animal's size is not one of the features you are taking on) rather than a range limit makes more sense. Your normal stats are part of your nature and will translate when you alter your form - a fast, fat man will become a fast, fat (for a hawk) hawk so if he turns into a man with hawkish reflexes and oddly hawkish appearance he should still be fast and fat compared to anyone else transformed by the same spell.
I also think that for the same level you can change up to all features into those from the same animal as per my Ursine Champion spell.
Since I'm arguing for one's personal stats to serve as the base for modification in this case I guess I should agree with DIREWOLF75 that the change should be relative to the target in general. However I'd make the base level 10 for a +/-1 change just so you can do a bit without warping the grogs.
In what way does it clearly state it? Is there an actual section saying "These are the general rules for how MuCo(An) spells affect the target's stats, abilities and qualities?" or words to that effect? If so could you paraphrase the content since there is fuck all point in keeping what is supposed to be a general rule secret. We are not ourselves mystery cultists and cannot be expected to accept the authority of occult rules.
I am sorry. I was in a hurry and did not expect you to be ignorant of the rule. Considering how interested you are in the forum, I assumed you practiced some forum archaeology before commenting.
HoH:MC p23 in its entirety is a sidebar titled Statistics of Shapechangers. It details characteristics, cunning, size, virtues, flaws, abilities, communication, wounds and experience.
For the purpose of this thread, the only important fact is "you take the highest stat when they are both positive." Lasse Rohde's spells are correct in limiting the bonus to the animal's feature. Maybe the magus could study an exceptional specimen and invent "Perception of King Sindibad's Falcon", or whatever legendary animal you can google.
Must admit, I've been a bit random in my forum archeology - there's quite a lot of it. And the core book is the only one I've spent a season on. Working through Mysteries now.
So I'm basically going by what would make sense to me if I were SG.
I like the idea of studying exceptional specimens to base better spells off - there's story in that. Find the greatest genius in Europe and get her back to the lab...
There was a thread on how to house-rule that way last year. There are complications on how to handle Size and the difference is not worth the effort IMO, the current simple rule is good enough.
In a way, those have Great (Char) which should carry over as the result is clear. :mrgreen:
So a man turned into a bear will have strength 6 unless he has Great Strength in which case it's 10?
Edit: and if that's how it works with shapechange based effects should that be how it works with direct MuStat? Which would bring us back to my OP and the question of do the numbers look OK? Meanwhile I'm still now preferring DIREWOLF75's scheme but with lower numbers
Yeah, it should be "... a score of at least +3 ... to no more than +5." But for me, only human can have +/-3 without it being Great. Weak animals don't survive so they all have the same above average stats with a variation of +/- 0. Therefore: "... a score of at least +0 ... to no more than +2." You may consider animals important enough to deserve some variation, though.
Or maybe I don't agree with what I just said, but when you shapechange you use the "perfect" average animal that has +0 for every stat. As I said, there are complications. :mrgreen:
You may not be if you don't believe what you just said but I'm sure that I don't believe it. Though I'm not sure that I believe that you are not sure that you believe that - I believe that you are sure that you don't believe that. I think. Just in case - a rebuttal: there is variations among animals, the weak may not last long as the weak but the young and the old and the sick exist to be encountered though some do grow up or get better, likewise there is variation among the strong, some are healthy but never come the alpha or herd leader and when alphas or herd leaders meet and fight the outcome is determined by luck alone. And since for beasts, as for men, there is variation broadly and continuously across the common herd then those individuals that can be said to have a great characteristic should deviate by 4 or 5 above the species average.
We could posit the following as the reasoning from nature to rule: that the smaller variations in the -3 to +3 range are too insignificant to carry over when changing species while Greatness (or its obverse) is essential and does so the options become -5,-4,+0,+4,+5 compared to the bestiary value. Unfortunately, we then have "you take the highest stat when they are both positive." which completely bollocks it up.
Why would this kind of shapeshifting not use the animal model from realm of forms? You'd be layering a 'perfect' specimin over whoever you are. It certainly makes caluclations easier and prevents people opting to shapeshift into a super-specimin.
Super-specimins should be reserved for the Bjornaer inner mysteries, IMO.
Str decrease due to size can be problematic for small forms.
If you have a Size -06 bird-form with Str -12 , for a human with Str -03 ,
decreasing Str to -15 probably means that you cant fly due to the encumbrance of your own feathers.
Because you should layer on top of a base specimen, not a perfect one. The perfect specimen has all the stat improvements required for his survival. A base bear might have +3 Strength with a +3 adjustment to be "perfect". Yes, this is the opposite of what I said, but the solution isn't clear yet.
That would also mean that animals turned into human wouldn't have +0 on all stats but some bonus based on survival needs. That would also explain why you retain your intelligence, as most animals require no such bonus for survival.
I don't like the idea of using Muto to enchance characteristics for two reasons:
-The first is that Creo is the Technique that is already associated with making things into better versions of what they already are (ArM5, p77). By allowing Muto to do the same, the dividing line between the techniques start to blur. If I allowed this, what would I say if a player wanted to use Rego to dislocate a shoulder? Use Perdo to carve wood? Or even Muto to change a wounded human into a non-wounded human? Maybe these are not the best examples, but I hope they illustrate my thinking, it goes against the (imho) core idea behind what each technique is allowed to do and removes that which makes them unique.
-The second thing is that Muto "cannot affect the properties that something has naturally, although it can add other properties to them to mask their effects." (ArM p78). A creatures characteristics must be natural properties, Strength is not something optional for which a "n/a" score is acceptable, so Muto shouldn't be able to affect it. Superstrength is still strength, only higher than normal. What Muto can do instead is to work around the problem by changing the nature of a thing temporarily. As a human, a person may have Str +1, but if turned into a bear he is no longer a human and shouldn't have human strength, a human strength is not a natural property for a bear, a bear naturally have the strength of a bear. As mentioned in previous posts above, HoH:MC p23 has very balanced rules for sorting out changes in characteristics in these cases.
And just a little comment on the last part of that quote, the "to mask their effects." part. This is very subjective, but I allow a person who has been increased in Size to use the same boost to Strength when he can put his weight and bulk into use. We had a silly discussion late one evening if it would be possible to enlarge someone so much that the victim would be too weak to move or even breath (consider Size +10 and Strength 0), sort of like a stranded whale, but I am not so sure I like the alternative either, supersized grogs running around and demolishing castles.
That being said. I can only say to the OP that yes, I too think that magic that temporarily boosts characteristics are a wee bit too high in level. The guideline levels are good for permanent boosts, just not temporary ones which needs to be one or two magnitudes higher even. Having a magi cast a spell on a grog to make him stronger is fitting somehow, I feel intuitivly that such a spell should be a little bit easier than one that conjures up a tsunami that can demolish a town or two.
Which means i could use MuCoAn to have someones muscles be as efficient as those of a cat, which has far higher strength compared to size than those of a human.
Or if i understand the change, i could just do it directly with MuCo.
A creature having Strength is a natural property yes. But the exakt degree of strength is variable...
I would say no. But I would encourage creative thinking to still achieve the task, perhaps by making use of the surroundings or by assistance of mundane means.
-The use of Rego to directly dislocate an arm is not okay to me. Although one can imagine that a "craftsman" (read wrestler) could dislocate someones arm, and having a dislocated arm is a natural state since it can occur without magic, and thus one could argue that the spell should be allowed to do the same. But the Rego craftsman seem to me to attempt things that make the target neither worse nor better only treated or shaped. Since the vicitim pretty clearly becomes a worse version of itself (it's gonna be hurt and can't use its arm) I reckon it ought to be Perdo. Rego magic can still harm indirectly by forcing a victim to move in ways that will harm it, such as throwing a person against a wall of sharp spikes. The important thing is that its not the Rego magic itself that does the damage, its the circumstances.
-I am not keen on allowing Perdo to carve or shape something, thats not a worse version of itself. I would allow a temporary Perdo spell (duration diameter) to rot a piece of wood so badly that it could easily be shaped by someones fingers, then when the spell ends the wood will revert to its original state. Its not the Perdo magic that caused the carving, it only made it easier to do, the carving was still done by hand. If someone wanted to use the target Part to damage only a bit of the wood, I would not allow any more precision than what would correspond to target an arm or a leg if the target had been a human, at least not without several extra intricacy magnitudes. A spell that wrote "Verrikus kicked my butt, may 1221" in the flesh of a victims forehead would require a fair amount of extra magnitudes for intricacy (or even worse, write something along the lines of "Property of Satan", a diabolical mark could utterly destroy a noble- or clergyman, but such a prank would likely make the Quaesatories upset).
When you write "muscles be as efficient as those of a cat" then it implies that muscles can be as efficient as those of a human as well, this is a gliding scale and not a new property, better of its kind but they are still human muscles, so Creo magic. Stronger is not a new property, wings or fur is. If someone wants the strength of a cat, then I would rule that they need to be a cat in order to get it, but a spell that does that can leave the hands intact (with an intricacy boost to magnitude).
As for using Muto and the target Part. I suppose it could be used to grow the size of the muscles, or turn them into animal muscles, although larger size doesn't mean stronger and animal muscles on a human skeleton may not prove very effective and is likely more detrimental than helpful.
In general I feel that the target of Part in all Corpus magic must be used extra carefully. It can do all kinds of weird things if left unchecked. A Rego Corpus spell that makes a person loose control of its heart (heart is given as an example under Part in ArM5, p113) is quite possible (level 10: base 2, voice +2, diam +1, part +1). Some may say that Part is already implied in the effect, since neither of the written spells (Curse of the Unruly Tongue or Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand) requires a Part target. As for the effect, a heart that is out of control could be considered to behave as if it had a heart attack, or severe arrythmia at the very least, in either case its dangerous for the victim. With generous rulings this would be a level 5 kill spell (although an opposing magi could dispel it before he dies and a mundane should be given a stamina roll to survive at least). To me this is not okay, heart attacks should be high level Perdo magic, not apprentice level Rego magic. (edit: slight rephrasing)
Creo magic already make things into better things of their kind. Muto clearly has to step on Creo's toes to pull this off, so to me thats a no-no. Muto is still a fantastic technique that can do so many things. (edit: slight rephrasing)
Muto can't change "stats", it grants bonus and minor abilities; for example a shapechanger could grant himself the faculties of a new and different body or change a part only, granting a great bonus in a concrete task.
(thoise would not use Muto, but hey)
"You may raise ... by one point"