Muto Vim and target effects' Frequency modifiers in enchanted devices

Suppose an enchanted device has a level 30 ReAn effect with unlimited uses per day (+10), so enchantment-wise it's effectively level 40. Should a MuVi effect (in the device) treat the ReAn effect as level 30 or level 40?

And what if the ReAn effect had additional levels to boost penetration?

I am pretty sure this has been answered before; in fact, I am pretty sure the question has popped up in my own game before, but I can't remember the answer :slight_smile:

Treat it as level 30. That shows up in a few spots in the books. For instance, there is a MuVi effect Anointing the King in HP that targets Rising of the King (ReCo(Me) 37) and is set to work on a level-30 effect, as those extra 7 are from frequency, environmental trigger, and linked trigger.

More generally, effects in a device have an "effect level" before adding stuff in and then a "total modified level of effect" afterward, and the latter is used for the laboratory, while the former is what is generally used for other things (e.g. MuVi).

Penetration is one of those things added after "effect level" to get to "total modified level of effect."

You might note this is extremely similar to regular spells. It doesn't matter if you fast-cast the spell, multiple-cast the spell, have tons or minimal penetration, etc. The effect level is the same in all those cases. But changes to R/T/D do modify the effect level as seen in FFM and in stacking two MuVi on one effect.


The easy way to remember it is that anything that adds a number (Uses, Triggers, Penetration) to the effect rather than changing its magnitude is not counted for the MuVi effects.

Opposite this, if you are enchanting something to give a bonus in the Lab then everything is counted in the total if the modifiers can reasonably be shown to improve the targeting bonuses. For example, if you are trying to increase Safety and crate a PeIg effect to put out fires, an Environmental Trigger to activate it on fires in the Lab and Uses are both effective increases while Penetration really isn't.

Nitpicking as it's not your core point, but I don't think you could do this with an Environmental trigger - according to the core book, the item is only subject to major magical changes in the environment (such as sunrise/sunset, or changes in aura), so you'd probably have to do it via a linked trigger to an InIg effect.

I do agree with the core point that it's the core effect that sets the level for MuVi purposes, not the effect modifications.

Semita Errabunda (official example covenant from Atlas Games) actually has a "Fire Guardian" which triggers the extinguish fires effect with an Environmental Trigger. So yes it is allowed by RAW.

Fire Guardian: This item takes the form of a small
bowl of water, and only works if it is kept full of
actual water. If a fire starts in the room containing
the item, it is immediately extinguished. This only
works on fires doing +5 damage or less, but very few
fires start stronger than that.
PeIg 20 (Base 4,+1 Touch, +2 Room, +3 levels environmental trigger, +2 3 uses/day)

Hmm. Interesting. I'm inclined towards that being an error in the example*, but what do other people think?

*There definitely are some errors in the examples, as the Library Lamp immediately above it has a Target: Room for a CrIg spell, despite Creo spells that create things being required to have an Individual or Group Target (pg 113).

1 Like

There are CrIg enchanted items that target Room and Structure in several books. Another example would be "Helios’ Companionship" from MoH, p 78 which is a CrIg target Room effect.

Agreed, but unless there's an erratum or exception added that I'm unaware of, I think that makes it a common mistake rather than not a mistake - the Core Rules do say:

The target of a Creo spell that actually creates something is always the thing created. The Target is thus always Individual or Group...A Creo spell with target Room cannot be used to fill a room with something.

All of the ones I have seen are for the creation of a uniform light and/or warmth rather than fire. Effectively fill the room with light without a direct source, which would be impossible with Target Part. I have not seen erratum that correct ether the Core Book or any of the varies uses of CrIg. In fact I did a full search and looked in the individual books before my last post.

The Core Book has so much errata that you have to conduct research before you can use it as a source. Is the Digital PDF updated with all of it to make use easier? If so I would be highly tempted to buy a copy.

I would say they key point is "creo spells that create something". Light, heat, a sound, a smell, etc. are not things and thus can fill a room in that they do not displace anything. A flame, in contrast, or a visual image, is a thing, and must be created as individuals.

1 Like

The spell "The Bountiful Feast" is a CrHe effect with Target Boundary (add "from the Core Rulebook") which makes plants healthy and protects against blight. This plus careful reading of the box on p. 113 leads me to side with Silveroak's interpretation.

That does not answer the "Environmental Trigger" activated by a fire in the room, but if we are going to continue this discussion it would be a good idea to move it to a separate thread. We have already sidetracked this one heavily.

That's a whole separate thing from de-novo creation. Creo to heal, make things healthy, etc. that is not actually creating something de novo does not fall under these rules.

The question silveroak brings up is whether lighting something, for example, is really creating anything. Are you just increasing the amount of light, or is light actually a thing being created?

I think you missed my meaning. I was agreeing with Silveroak that filling a location with Light, Heat, or Smell are not actually creating a "Thing". 'The Bountiful Feast' was the only Creo spell in the Core Rules which does not have a Target of Individual or Group, which is why I brought it up.

Also from the box on p 113 is "A spell to create a part of something is either a healing spell or a Muto spell, depending on the part created." That would imply that many of the healing spells should target Part rather than Individual. If you are healing an single wound for example.

No, I got it. The core book differentiates between healing/improving something existing and creating something from scratch. Creo can do both. Creo to create something from scratch is restricted to Individual and Group. Creo to improve something existing is not. The Bountiful Feast improves something that exists rather than creating something from scratch. There are more examples in later books of doing such healing/improvement with other Targets as well.

As for healing, you're making a person a better version of a person, not the wound a better version of a wound. So it's the person you're targeting rather than the wound. So far as I'm aware, this has been quite consistent throughout the line.

Except for in the text box that started this whole thing, which actually brings up Part as a valid target for healing.

I would like to add that what we are arguing is semantics. The drop in Target from Room or Structure to Individual can be used to add Size which would take the thing created up to roughly the same area.

Instead of Target Room for something like light or heat, you end up with Target Individual and Size +2 for the same magnitude. Both would fill the room with light or heat. Using Room over Individual and Size +2 shortens the text, while telling you without writing out a description that the light or heat fills the room equally, without spilling out. That shortening of the text might be the very reason it was done.

Except it doesn't. It's stating that creating that piece is not de-novo Creo of a piece. Instead it is either healing/repairing (bringing toward ideal) or Muto rather than being de-novo Creo. They're explaining that, for example, putting wings on a person isn't CrAn to add wings, but Muto instead. They're also explaining that healing isn't Creo to add a part but Creo to improve.

This is like what they've written about Perdo sharpening a sword. You could say sharpening is taking away bits and argue for Perdo; certainly many people have. But that's not correct. Similarly, they're saying here that you cannot just create bits of flesh in the location of the wound; instead you have to actually heal the wound.

It's actually not just semantics. Consider things like the CrVi spell to refresh traces with T: Circle. The whole idea is that you many not know if there are any and might not be able to find them to hit them with a spell. But if they're in the circle you can get them. Then you'll be able to examine the fresher traces. If Circle were disallowed for this, you couldn't do that. But this is improving the traces rather than creating new traces.

It is semantics when we are arguing that a CrIg effect with Target Room to create light/heat filling the room (as found in varies books) produces in any way a different effect from Target Individual and Size +2 with a written description that the light and heat fill the room evenly and completely. Target Room is 100 Base Individuals, Target Individual and Size +2 is 100 Base Individuals.

The throw away addition of the spell 'The Bountiful Harvest' I made should not have been added to the discussion and I retract everything related to it. I will no longer engage in any discussion on healing since it is outside of the topic which was CrIg with target Room/Structure.