muto vim spell for discussion

hello folks,

I'm developing a spell which alters other spells, with the intent to increase the target spell's level to prevent disruption and dispel effects. I'd like a way for low level Formulaic spells to not be dispelled so easily and Muto Vim seems like the right place to start.

My idea is that most Pedo or Rego effects that effect spells already in place (i.e. Unraveling the Fabric of {Form}) have to defeat the target spell's level, and that a MuVi effect could increase another spell's effective level for the purposes of disruption or manipulation.

a.k.a. Wizard's Fortitude of {Form}, MuVi, (General spell) (Form)

  • to use the MuVi guideline or either Major or Total change (unsure)
  • I've not decided on which R,D,T o use as yet. I was goingto start with a version based upon R:Touch, D:Mom, and T:Ind and go from there with variations.
  • seems a mMuto effect can raise another spell by a max of +2 mags without Creo. And then more if it includes a Creo requisite - I assume the limit is up to the level of the Wizard's Fortitude of Form.


  • a +2 mag change is a "total" change, otherwise a Creo requisite would be needed. That implies that the Total guideline under MuVi should be used. However that degree of change reflected in a Total change example is the alteration of the Form used. Wouldn't an increase in level only for the purposes of resisting disruption not be as "total"?
  • I think I might create this effect as a Muto/Vim (Creo), or write up two versions, so that the effect can increase the effective level by greater than +2 mags; but which guideline is used?
  • the level change would not affect the MR & Penetration of the target effect.
  • I think a different version would be needed for each Hermetic Form. The Sorceror's Fork in MuVi doesn't need this, nor does some of the Rego Vim spells, but Wizard's Boost & Reach in MuVi does, and some PeVi effects do too.
  • Has this style of effect been done before in RAW?

When I last looked at this idea, my thought was to create a sort of magical sabot: a CrVi shell that wrapped around another spell, increasing its magnitude while otherwise not affecting it - thereby, as you suggest, increasing its ability to penetrate anti-magic effects.

As the MuVi sections says, adding +2 or more magnitudes to a spell is a Creo Vim effect, but there's no real description of how to do that in the Creo Vim section. Serf's parma, but from what I recall, the closest you get in CrVi is the "create a generic magic shell, 2x the magnitude of the spell". That is the one I would use, personally - with the caveat that you're going to have to figure out how to do the whole "cast a spell on a spell" thing - MuVi gets around it via special rules, which may or may not apply. YSMV. I think my solution was one of the following:

  1. to have a delayed ReVi ring watching ward that would break whenever a spell was cast through it - thereby increasing the power of the spell.
  2. Or have it built into a Talisman, and have it affect any spell that was cast through it. It's not MuVi, so it gets around the issues with MuVi and magical devices. If you find that a bit cheesy, consider that Intangible tunnel can be used in a device, and that basically adds multiple magnitudes of Range onto an effect.
  3. Or else put the target spell into a ReVe "delay spell for 1 diameter" effect, then cast the CrVi effect on it (while it was still in stasis). When the diameter expired, the (now modified) spell would fly away and hit its target.

Also, I'd argue that while there is mention of the whole "use CrVi for increases beyond +2" it in the MuVi section, because it isn't mentioned in the CrVi section means that you're going to have to develop the guideline in-game: it doesn't actually exist in RAW. (So - either GM adjudication, or an NPC will have to develop it, or your own magi.)

Oh - in thinking about this a bit more, I'd argue against having to have a different version for each form - that's the death knell of most MuVi effects, IMO - You can just as easily argue that every other version of Vim doesn't need it, so there's not a particularly strong argument for CrVi to require it, either.

Alternately, you can go "use the 2x version for a specific form, but use the 1x version for a generalized effect usable with any form" - similar to how PeVi does its specific/generic countermagic.

Perdo Vim does.

Perdo Vim offers both options. I think it could be the same for such a spell.

A broad version could affect a spell of less or equal to half the (level + 1 magnitude) [the "Totally change" base effect], while the Form-specific spell could affect a spell of less to equal the level + 1 magnitude [the "Significantly change" base effect].

I'd probably go with +5 levels for resisting dispelling using the "significant" guideline and +10 levels for the "total" guideline and not require form specific versions. For level 50 versions (R Touch/D Mom/T Ind), you get +5 levels (to a max of 50) or +10 levels (to a max of 25/35? - not 100% sure on whether you can +10 a level 25 spell, or can only +10 the spell up to level 25).

I'd also look at whether adding a new Spell Mastery special ability that adds 1x the mastery score in levels on top of the +5/+10 is workable for appropriate MuVi effects, along the lines of the Unraveling special ability for PeVi in HoH:S.

I like Mastery, a lot actually. And a new Mastery to make the spell more resistant to dispelling (or other changes) seems like an easy solution. Easier than a MuVi spell to do the same. Although I'd keep this new Mastery in line with Unravelling and Rebuttal and add Masteryx3 to the effective spell level with regards to how difficult it is to affect with Vim magic.

Are there any rules for inventing new Mastery abilities? I know you can Integrate some Hedge Magic resulting in new Mastery. But how do you invent it from scratch, is it some kind of Breakthrough?

Yep - just came across those Integration notes for the Gruganch (HM:RE, pg.78). It costs 30 Breakthrough points for Flexible Formulaic Mastery. From what I recall of the Breakthrough rules, you can either do Integration, Original Research, or a combination of either (ie, the breakthrough points are identical). As such, I would imagine its' the same for this theoretical Mu/Cr/Vi Mastery -you'd assign a number of Breakthrough points, and then it's up to the PC to figure out where to get them.

Since Unravelling the Fabric is Form specific, an alternative to protect a spell would be to change its Form.

Example: Magus A create a ring to hold a demon. It is a Rego Vim. Everybody knows that Demon are from the Vim Realm, so anybody trying to dispell the spell will go with Unravelling the Fabric of Vim. Magus A is aware of that and has design "Altering the Fabric of Magic: Imaginem". He cast this spell on the Warding spell which for all purpose of detection and dispelling will know be reacting as if it was a Imaginem spell of the same magnitude as the original spell.

It does not protect from generic dispelling spells though.

I don't follow how the initial spell would function against the demon, as the MuVi spell would alter the form of the target spell, and therefore make it ineffective against the demon. What am I missing?

I realise I was not thorough enough in the description of the spell.
I was looking more at changing the nature of the spell without changing its effect. For the outsider, it will like a Imaginem spell was holding the demon, when at core it is a Vim spell.

It is somehow link to my personal vision of how spell works. For me, a spell draws its power from the Realm of Magic. The nature of the spell dictates what type of magical energy (aka which Form) it needs to alter the mundane world. The MuVi would act as an "magical energy converter". In this case, the MuVi will make the initial spell draw Imaginem energy, converts it into Vim and sustain the initial spell. For all purpose of the detection, the flow and nature of magical energy is Imaginem.
I don't know what would be a suitable base level for this kind of effect: Change the Form of spell, without altering its effects.
Maybe it is beyond what magic can do.

I don't believe I want to go down this avenue, of metamagic spells altering the effective Form of a spell without altering the effect.

I'm ok with spells to shroud and confuse, so detection- and investigative magics is fooled into believing a spell of Form A is actually Form B. But once you start with magic to alter or unravel said spell, your spells will fail because they are targeting the wrong kind of magic. But the caster may not realize this, the spells could also fail because they were too weak.
This was actually a plan of ours when my group had a short sting in Hibernia. We were young and weak magi, but the Cathach could also be protected by guile rather than force. Using Muto Vim we would make weak and useless spells look like powerful Ignem spells. So challengers coming around and scouting would think we had dangerous traps set. But when trying to unravel them they would fail. We hoped this would induce paranoia and spread rumors to buy us time.

I strongly agree with Christian on this.

On a similar (but less drastic) note, would it be possible to use a Muto Vim spell to change a spell just enough that it no longer counted as a standard Hermetic spell for "Unravelling the Fabric of (Form)" spells, and you had to either use a generalised dispelling spell or have knowledge of the specific Muto Vim spell in order to design a specialised dispel? It sounds like the sort of thing that should be theoretically possible, but might require a (probably fairly easy) breakthrough?

Hm. Well, I'd say the core rules would allow a MuVi spell that would add a meaningless requisite to the target spell - ie, it could change a CrTe spell to a CreTe(Vi) spell, in which the requisite doesn't do anything other than make the spell more complex. However, how would this affect PeVi countermagic? Serf's Parma, but I don't think requisites are mentioned anywhere. So you'd have to have that discussion with your troupe.

I tend toward thinking a spell with a Tech and two Forms can be affected by either Form specific dispel effect. The unravelling affects part of the spells structure and it doesn't really matter which form it unravels to make the spell loose it's cohesion. This makes requisites a slight disadvantage.
But I hold the same concept to other ways of affecting spells it also introduces an advantage to Mu effects affecting the Forms too. Ie a Muto Vim Terram spell to alter Range up by 1 mag can be applied to any spell using Terram, either as the base form or a requisite.
I don't see adding breadth of application into Vim spells as unbalancing.

The effects as I ended with was a balance of accepting the RAW guidelines in MuVi as indisputable, and also adding some additional mechanics about the degree of difficult in spell disruption for spells which have been altered by this new spell.

The reason for this was pretty simple in the end: The original draft of this spell which added +5 levels using the Significant Change MuVi guideline actually had no effect described. It did nothing. Sure it added 5 levels, but it did nothing else. The same result could be achieved using Wizard's Boost or Wizard's Reach as written in the core rules and that is not at all what I was after.

I wanted a specific style of wizard's boost - one that made it harder to dispel these effects, but had no other material effect on the magic (it is very much narrower than being up to the SG). So this spell is just a very specific variation of the wizard's boost, where the storyguide might decide the outcome is the effected spell is much harder to destroy.

The effect chosen was that the target spell's level is considered doubled for the purposes of being dispelled.

And then a variant to raise it ten levels, which is the same concept, using +10 shift and the much harder "total change" spell guideline.

I have a doubt - is the double level too far vs dispel magic? I see it as a very specific spell meta-effect.
Obviously the duration of a variation when learnt will really be the decider.
EDIT: actually I'm pretty certain that double is too far - perhaps just up to the level of the Wizard's Fortitude effect.

The doubling on Wizard's Fortitude of (Form) might be a tad excessive IMO, as you can cast a level 45 or 50 spell, use this to boost it to level 50 and then double it to level 100 for purposes of dispelling. That means a level 50 Wind of Mundane Silence needs a stress die roll of 150 to successfully dispel the boosted spell and a level 50 Unravelling the Fabric of (Form) needs at least 40 on its stress die.

Wizard's Resilience of (Form) is a little better - it can boost a level 25 spell to 35 and double to 70 - leaving that level 50 Wind needing a stress roll of 90 and the level 50 Unravelling needing a mere 10.