natural magic

So you'll typically go extended periods without brushing your teeth? You'll rewear underwear a few times before washing it? Etc. I don't think those habits put you in the majority of those playing Ars Magica.

As for sticking to any specific schedule and putting things off, Moon gives you a lot of leeway.

Flexibility at the expense of extra work. If you cast it as it wears out, it lasts for four weeks (approximately). If you cast it just before it wears out, it only lasts for two weeks, so you need to cast twice as often.

But at the end of the day, it boils down to how many of these spells are deemed essential enough to enter the daily (or regular) routine, but one must remember that they come on top of the mundane routine (and parma) not instead of. It piles up.

I can imagine a physically impaired magus spending quite a lot of time to offset his disability. A perfectly healthy magus who just wants to tune his superhumanity on a daily basis sounds like the player thinking.

No, you don't. You're making a mathematical error. You can flex things some, but regardless of the particular timing, you cast it once per two weeks on average. There is no extra work for the flexibility.

Or maybe like a soldier making sure his armor and equipment are ready? Or like pretty much anyone who has a job regularly doing things that are tedious that just need to be done?

I'm not saying everyone would have a hundred spells running constantly, though. I'm saying this Virtue opens up that possibility because it removes all the Warping. This is significant difference than it being of little use to anyone not doing Longevity Rituals, isn't it?

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I may have been assuming that you let it lapse for a few minutes before you recast. If you do that, you cast once per four weeks, rather than per two weeks.

In game terms the difference is minor, because we would normally be happy to let the magi run their full arsenal of spells on adventure and save them the warping from constant effects. Only a very few incidents would be affected by the added constantness.

I think you missed two things I wrote. You caught one: that it is running constantly, which voids this. You could do it this way if you want, though, but it is harder and less safe. You seem to have missed the other as well: I showed how to do this with ReVi, requiring far fewer known spells and less time.

Then you're house-ruling that this Virtue already partly exists, and that house rule is the basis for this Virtue not adding much. Without such a house rule, 100 spells running straight for a 1-week adventure would give you 2 Warping Points, not none. And then there is the additional issue of being able to get all those spells up and running for an adventure that isn't planned ahead by the character.

I find no support for your statement in RAW.

True, but it is also hard to imagine so many spells which are likely to be useful in a particular context.

Actually, the first thing is that if you cast with duration moon all effects will end on either the full or new moon. Which means in a season they wear off either 3 or 6 times, depending on whether you have everything synced to the same phase (full or new), If you are spending 6 days a season casting spells to maximize your lack of warping, that is seriously cutting into your free time of 10 days/season.

Sure, if you have to spend 6 full days, that is the case. But look at what I showed above. Without multiple casting you can do this using 9 minutes per fortnight. Each of those "days" your referencing can be 9 minutes long to maintain 90 spells. How much does a loss of less than a minute per day on average cut into the 10-hour day in the lab or similar? Across the entire season, you're looking at a total loss of 54 minutes to maintain 90 spells, and only a fraction of that if you have multiple casting with the ReVi spell.

Except that that technique also seriously restricts your choice of which spells you can cast. The point is to maximize the benefit, not just run up a tally on the number of active spells.

How so. Doesn't it greatly expand the choice? Now you can cast spells that are two magnitudes lower, which should make more spells available. For spontaneous spells, you only have to cast them a single time instead of casting them every moon, which will cut down on a lot of botches and thus makes spontaneous magic safer to use, opening up even more spell. Also, with spontaneous magic, ceremonial magic's time becomes insignificant over the long run, so you can manage that much more.

Sure, you have to have sufficient Rego and Vim to get this spell in the first place. But how much is that? You don't need really high Arts there to get to level 25 or level 30. Once you've done that, nearly all personal wards are now available to you, for example.

Okay, I guess I didn't understand which ReVi spell you were talking about...

Moon-duration Maintaining the Demanding Spell. Now all your Concentration-duration spells can last forever.

Widely known as this method is, it might have been polite to put that explicitly in an earlier post.

That said, @callen is correct. Introducing this virtue is very close to making Warping irrelevant - slightly dependent on how much work your Troupe deem necessary to fulfill:

Well, the people a spell is deigned for means one other person defined when the spell is invented. Also in order to get the virtue it will require initiating into a lost Diedne ritual- the difficulty of which is dependent on whether it is minor or major, and if you thought having Diedne based spontaneous magic had the potential to cause trouble, this one could get you marched if anyone else finds out about it, no investigation, no questions asked. So that's a balancing factor...

Is this Hugh's story? :slight_smile: No, I do not think you are not supposed to answer that.

I think it is a difficult call. There are only a few very specific use cases (suggesting minor), but in those use cases, it is a game changer (suggesting major). In this particular case, with very tight control of when and how the virtue is made available, the normal game balancing concerns are not necessarily relevant, because you can balance the initiation script and/or non-mechanical consequences. Maybe it does not matter how you classify it?

It's this part:

Further, if a character is always under the influence of some mystical effect, but the particular mystical effect changes, that still counts for the purposes of gaining warping.

What this shows is that the warping is not gained individually by effect, but combined from all the effects. So, for example, let's say you have two effects for one week, two different effects for another week, two different ones for the third week, etc. for a year. By RAW that is 2 Warping Points. Meanwhile, the spells do the same warping regardless of which week of the year they are cast, right? (E.g. A spell cast in the summer doesn't warp less than a spell cast in the autumn.) This directly results in my statement above.

They aren't necessarily, but because you've got such broad coverage, you do have whatever you need available active. If you hadn't done this, you might not have the right one active. And then there may be a whole bunch of particular contexts in one adventure. Maybe at one point your searching the countryside so flight and lots of vision stuff help. Later you're in a combat so Soak, invisibility, and a bunch of wards help. Etc.

I could have been more explicit, yes, but I did explain it was a ReVi spell to maintain all the other spells indefinitely by casting it once every two weeks.

"An effect which is active for half the time counts as constant for these purposes. Less than that it does not" indicates that if your stack of spells is active for less than 6 months they only count if they are 'standing in' for some other effect that is normally on. Realistically I wouldn't even track anything less than a month's duration unless it was somehow specified that it was being used in a continuous fashion...

And I'm just realizing how much warping gets forgotten as well- 6 months per year under a spell to give a bonus to healing? Warping point...

It does show that, but only for one particular kind of combination. It is not obvious that the average number of active effects is the key indicator. It would be a reasonable house rule, but still a house rule.

This should be a real concern for many of us. And it skews the balance of the proposed virtue as well as some canon ones.

Except it goes on to specify that this 6 months doesn't need to be from one effect. It can be from the combo of all effects. For example, you have spell 1 on for week 1, then spell 2 on for week 2, then spell 3 on for week 3, etc. up to 6+ months. Let's say you do that with 30 spells. Canonically, this is 1 Warping Point for the year, even though no effect lasted anywhere close to 6 months.

Yup. And due to the rule on switching effects, we can see it gets forgotten even more often. It's probably one of the most ignored bits after the required Concentration roll to suppress your PM while casting a spell on yourself. And @loke is definitely right that it does skew the balance of this and other things.

So you're saying the effects do warp differently based on when they're cast. E.g. spell 1 will warp differently on week 1 than it would have if it were active on week 2 instead. That is necessary for your conclusion. Is that supported somewhere canonically?

No, they do not warp differently, because it is, as you said, not the individual effects which warp, but the combination. And a small constant number of effects is very different from a very variable number, with high peaks and troughs, even if the average is the same. Given that RAW is as it is, I assume the body and mind relies on periods of rest, completely free of magic, in order to avoid warping.