New game master: A dark setting

Oh, ignore me. I seem to be using a house rule. Sorry.

One of the (many) wonderful things about the 5th edition compared to the 4th, is that fatigue isn't ubiquitous.

A word of caution: Hermetic magi can be very powerful. Given enough time to prepare, they can be very very powerful. If you want a dark setting, consider whether you'd like to make some house rules or group-agreements to steer the game in that direction.

Creo Corpus can fairly easily cure most wounds and disease, albeit with time and some mundane medic [instant cure requires raw vis and is generally harder]. Likewise for disease. If you want a grittier game, consider increasing the difficulty of such effects. Alternatively, just decide the PCs would keep out of enchanting or inventing such effects.

If you are going to use demons to drive dark disease and mental illness (developing obsessions for particular types of sin, in particular, works very well, as does losing some "cardinal virtues" such as patience or temperance) - consider that demons can be tricky to combat at times (see in particular possession!), but they are still often vulnerable and have fairly low magic resistance. If you want them to be more scary, you can increase their defenses, including perhaps their magic resistance (allowing them more use of the cardinal virtues will also greatly strengthen them). Or you can just play them as more into subterfuge and being sneaky (and cowardly!) then as big bad foes.

ArM can work very well as a dark setting, and you can wing things and change things as the game develops. But especially when it comes to player choices, such as Creo Corpus magic, it's generally better to think of things in advance.

Yair

Ars Magica is already a dark gritty setting. It's actually a lot easier to deal with injury and dismemberment in Shadowrun (instant magical healing! future medicine! cloned replacement parts!) than in Ars Magica. Oh, healing rituals? Does anybody know how to cast them? Can they even cast them from a casting tablet? Do they have the vis required? While in theory these things are possible, the nearest magi capable of stuff might be weeks of travel away. Not every covenant is a capable hospital. The one advantage they'll have is that an Aegis of the Hearth will keep out those disease spirits and demons (and faeries!) that cause some problems. Recovery boosting spells are low enough that somebody at a covenant can learn/cast them, but that's probably as good as it gets.

All it takes to be 'gritty' in Ars Magica is a slow campaign style. If one season (or less!) passes per session, magi will grow in power very slowly (and freshly gauntleted magi are often quite weak unless carefully built) and the danger level can easily remain high without too much difficulty.

When it comes to fatigue in combat, I see it as generally being a case that the adrenaline rush will overrule any fatigue effects you'd suffer such as exerting yourself over a long time, but can't stop the "I throw myself into the attack all out" tiring out.

Um, I'm probably going to regret saying this but: replace the Gift the The False Gift from RoP:I and see some (but only some) of the WW era 3rd edition material.

Thanks a lot for the help and the friendly atmosphere.

I will quickly grab a copy in pdf of the books you have mentioned.

Regarding fatigue, what has confused me is the entry on page 178

Short-Term Fatigue:
"Characters are normally Fresh until they perform some strenuous action, such as engaging in combat, casting spontaneous spells, or sprinting. Brief strenuous actions require a Fatigue test"

but indeed, later on I can read "combat and magic use have different rules for Fatigue loss that replace those given here".

So I am not 100% sure how to handle this. I guess that to start with I won't go asking for fatigue rolls every round to PC and NPC, less rolls = faster combats.

Regarding the two weapons, knowing there are no official rules for it, as suggested, I will do some maths so it does not get unbalance as compared to greatweapons and weapon + shield.

The idea I have is to start playing the game without the magic system (I can hear the gasps from you). I like the setting and the simplicity of the system, and my first sessions I want the players to play with companions working for a covenant, to get use to the system. Later I will introduce the wizards, grogs etc.

Thanks again for the help
Yepes

No gasps from me. It's something you see suggested quite frequently for the very reason you cite.

Do you know when your first session is yet?

In combat, it's possibly to "strain yourself" and accept a fatigue level to add your combat ability to your combat total again. I see this option used a fair amount.
Also, It's probably worth noting that the group combat rules are brutal.

In terms of combat, group combat for normal humans tends to resemble old-school L5R: "I'm a hard-core, minmaxed PC! unlike everyone else, I can take TWO hits before falling!" Which is why magi have grogs, of course: specifically, the turb - to soak up melee damage in the unfortunate circumstance in which your mage don't win initiative.

It will be Friday 16 of May...still a month :stuck_out_tongue:

Nothing to gasp about. It's a fairly common way to introduce people to the game!

In fact, I'd suggest starting not with companions, but with grogs.

Grogs are even simpler than companions, and are expendable; if you make "mistakes" in designing or playing one, no big deal. You though playing a "fighter" type would be interesting? Play a warrior grog for one or two sessions, and if you find it's boring, the next session make a troubadour and play that and see whether you like that more. The warrior will still be "there", part of the covenant, and ready to be played by anyone who wants (or just a background character your other characters will see on guard duty or retelling exaggerated stories of his exploits etc.).

Essentially, starting by playing grogs will allow your players to taste more of the game, with fewer worries; and will also allow you to build the atmosphere of the covenant by creating a rich palette of minor characters.

And most folks have mentioned Against the Dark, RoP:I, and A&A. So I'll chime in with the following commentary:

  1. Yep, that's way most folks introduce Ars Magica to people - without the magic system. There's enough going on in Ars, just from a historical-mixed-with-fantasy perspective, that taking a couple of sessions to introduce both the world, the general game mechanics, as well as the playstyle (grog/Companion/Magi) is usually considered a wise move. Note that the combat system is...OK. 5th edition has improved it to the point where it's not BAD....but it's not the selling point of the game. It's relatively abstract, so don't get too bogged down in flanking or positioning or 10' movement squares. (Not that that sort of thing isn't fun - just that it isn't AM's strength.) Mainly its a game that has a workable combat system that is designed to let magi be awesome in spellcasting.

  2. Against the Dark: the Transylvanian Tribunal, is the current "dark" sourcebook - but it starts right up in the front with "Transylvania isn't any more spooky than the rest of Mythic Europe - that's an artifact of Bram Stoker. But it's a good place to put the "dark and spooky stuff", so we put it in here." Which, again - not a bad thing, but something to be aware of.

  3. Demons are a bit tricky to play in Ars - due to their nature, they are at the same time very smart and powerful, yet very stupid (from a mortal's perspective). The main issue is that they can't comprehend or act on virtue - which includes things like "maintain a plan in the face of opposition", and "display caution" or "resist their impulses". While they can temporarily "fake it" (by spending Willpower/Confidence), ultimately this is what usually causes their downfall.

Recommendation: like mortals, demons gain back Willpower/Confidence when being true to their Nature. Therefore, when taking a demon as a villain - assume that they spent Confidence to set up their plan. Which includes an understanding of their own weakness, and an ability to learn from past mistakes, and controlling their innate overconfidence. Also assume their strategic plan includes time and places for reflection (ie, to recover Confidence, and to spend that Confidence in order to critique the current state of their plan, and change it accordingly.)

Because once they set up their plan, they won't want to change it: so make sure that the plan includes "times and places to reflect and possibly change." Most plans of this type will probably include "Corrupt a mortal and work through them, because I understand that I cannot comprehend Faith/Hope/Love - but a mortal can." This also means that the demon won't interact much with the mortal world, as the plan it sets up assumes that it won't be able to control its impulses (lack of Temperance).

With that in mind: the plans they come up with will actually be really good (strategically), if somewhat limited by their Nature. Such plans can be broken by PC's, but only if the PC can force the demon to react in a tactical sense - when they don't necessarily have confidence to spend to control their own depravity. When the demon is acting according to its nature, it's actually quite vulnerable - a show of force will drive it off (lack of Hope), and its plans will quickly fall to ruin.

Also note that "Demon's Eternal Oblivion" is the "kill a demon" spell, and it's commonly known and relatively easy to cast. So if a known demon is within shouting distance of a magi, there's a good chance the demon will get shanked. Assuming the demon has spent Confidence to acknowledge its own weakness, it will have plans to address this.

If you're going tor have your players run thru several sessions to get ready for their magi, may I suggest that, before they make magi, that you, as SG, introduce a mage NPC. Maybe just an apprentice, one who casts Spontaneous Magic to help them thru situations. (You could plan ahead, so you know what Spontaneous effects are small enough to be reasonable yet the perfect solution).

This would get your players excited about the flexibility of the system, and give them some examples, and get you as SG some practice, and also introduce an NPC who can come back - maybe as a friend, maybe as a villain. (Maybe have the PC's "on their way" to a covenant, where they'll meet the PC magi? Whatever works best.)

Without magic you'll find recovering from combat to be very slow and the outcome is certainly less certain.

I certainly wouldn't do any rolls to check fatigue during combat.

My experience with L5R (1st edition only) was that everyone could survive a single blow. Usually out of the battle but certainly still alive. We even considered hacking the system to make it more deadly.

Thanks for the further suggestions, I indeed had the idea to introduce some magi NPCs, may be they can be the future magi PCs...we will see.

I find the combat in Ars Magica abstract, fast and lethal, which for me it means perfect! All the better if we can play it without grids, minis and these sort of things. I am a detractor of games D&D style, my first owned RPG was Rune Quest :slight_smile:

Thanks guys, your comments and suggestions are very much welcome!
Yepes

If these NPC "magi" are apprentices, then they may be loosely defined enough to become almost anything later on, depending on the final concept of your players for their magi*. A few Arts at 5 each** and an apologetic helplessness at not knowing any "formulaic" spells yet, and you're set!

(* If one of your Players "knows" what their mage-concept will be, a strong enough one that you can predict some Arts or even a core spell or two, then so much the better, but not absolutely necessary. Apprentices often are depicted as spending the first dozen or so years in preparation of learning magic, and only learn "real" spells in their final couple/few years, and sometimes gain some of their more unusual (Hermetic) Virtues then as well. Not a hard rule by any means, but a soft and common-enough stereotype.)

(** One Tech + one Form at ~5 each is enough for Lvl 4-5 spontaneous effects with that TeFo combo...

Te 5 + Fo 5 + Int 3(?) +/- Aura (???) + 1 Strong Gestures + 1 Loud Voice + d10 = 10+/2 = 5(+)
...and you're there. Any "base effect" of 3 or less can have +1 Range:Touch and +1 Duration: Diamater to put a "lasting" effect on others, but Momentary and/or Personal effects can be flashy too.

Rego and Terram are common enough in magi that have finished gauntlet that "some one" is likely to go that direction, and also provide a spectrum of nifty little effects to solve problems and act as an exemplar for your players - "mage hand" type effects, "clean dirt/mud from clothes" (to remove evidence or help Etiquette rolls), cause the mage (Range:Personal) to leave no tracks for a couple minutes (or Range:Touch for a few steps), even do a very minor (d+0) ranged damage spell).

And many apprentices have (undesired) nicknames that they immediately change upon passing their Gauntlet, taking their "mage" name - so you could call them almost anything appropriate to the master/apprentice relationship - Newt, Loser, Klutz, Bug, Toad, Sparky, Pup (maybe in Latin, maybe not) - you know, something demeaning - nicknames - and that apprentice can become any mighty-named PC mage that generally fits.

You wouldn't even have to tell the Players that this is a possibility - just run the NPC apprentice(s) without any comment in that direction, and if/when they fit final magi fit, then give them the (bad?) news.)

For more information on first-time character (magi) creation, take a look at this recent thread: https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/pearls-of-wisdom-your-one-tip-for-character-creation/8748/1 - it's basically a "give me 1 recommendation for new character creation".

Heh - well, yeah. Hence the min-maxed part. Ie, the average PC could take 1 shot - but if you were playing the heavy fighter (those crab guys - the Hida?), you could conceivably take TWO shots!