New Guy

[Jonathan.Link]

In a this isn't really a Flaw and could be actually be a virtue, kind of thing. This Great Beast ancestor should automatically be incompatible as far as an inner heartbeast is concerned. Indeed, that's the first hurdle for initiative the mystery, finding the suitable ancestor, so if this great beast were a compatible heartbeast, you've really shortcut the process.

Now, IMO, you're stacking the deck against your character in a couple other ways. Ways that have really long term repercussions.

Poor Student is really a heinous flaw for a magus, who will derive most of his experience from study, it's effectively a Major flaw for a magus. In a table top game, I would be less inclined to say something, but in a PbP, where the pace of advancement is so much slower, adding things that slow down advancement for everything really hurts. I see you already took Weak Scholar, which can be overcome a bit more easily, because it's a function of the Lab Total as it relates to a lab text, but you're going to be working longer to get to the same Lab Total than another magus will, and then you have to add another 6 onto it to overcome the Weak Scholar. Really might want to rethink Poor Student.

Magic Theory really should be a 3, again this is something that penalizes you from the very beginning. You setup a lab, and it will have a Refinement of -1, meaning it needs to have a Flaw. And how are you going to get it up 15 experience points? Read for two seasons. So, to setup a standard lab, at best, you need 4 seasons of work for this character, as is. You could setup a lab with a flaw, within two seasons of joining, sure. You just spend three seasons at a later point to fix it, two to get the Magic Theory up to 30 xp (15-3xp per season, for two seasons) and one to do a refinement on your lab to get the flaw removed, for a total of 5 seasons.

[Prince_of_Boredom]

@Jonathan.Link

In a this isn't really a Flaw and could be actually be a virtue, kind of thing. This Great Beast ancestor should automatically be incompatible as far as an inner heartbeast is concerned. Indeed, that's the first hurdle for initiative the mystery, finding the suitable ancestor, so if this great beast were a compatible heartbeast, you've really shortcut the process.

Actually, the plan is that during my 10 years post-gauntlet/pre-game, I plan to have him find his Great Beast ancestor and initiate into the Inner Heartbeast. So this flaw really represents that after his initiation the Great Beast ancestor continues to bug him and push him in directions that he may or may not want to go.

@Jonathan.Link

Now, IMO, you're stacking the deck against your character in a couple other ways. Ways that have really long term repercussions.

Poor Student is really a heinous flaw for a magus, who will derive most of his experience from study, it's effectively a Major flaw for a magus. In a table top game, I would be less inclined to say something, but in a PbP, where the pace of advancement is so much slower, adding things that slow down advancement for everything really hurts. I see you already took Weak Scholar, which can be overcome a bit more easily, because it's a function of the Lab Total as it relates to a lab text, but you're going to be working longer to get to the same Lab Total than another magus will, and then you have to add another 6 onto it to overcome the Weak Scholar. Really might want to rethink Poor Student.

I totally understand that I’m setting myself up to play the game on hard mode, but I’m okay with that. I had considered taking the Free Study merit to go with Independent Study, but I saw in someone else’s character thread that our SG wanted to stay away from that virtue. What it boils down to is that Astor is going to be volunteering for every adventure possible, and do lots of training. My Arts improvement is going to have to come from adventure xp and Vis study.

@Jonathan.Link

Magic Theory really should be a 3, again this is something that penalizes you from the very beginning. You setup a lab, and it will have a Refinement of -1, meaning it needs to have a Flaw. And how are you going to get it up 15 experience points? Read for two seasons. So, to setup a standard lab, at best, you need 4 seasons of work for this character, as is. You could setup a lab with a flaw, within two seasons of joining, sure. You just spend three seasons at a later point to fix it, two to get the Magic Theory up to 30 xp (15-3xp per season, for two seasons) and one to do a refinement on your lab to get the flaw removed, for a total of 5 seasons.

Well the first thing is that I haven’t done my 10 years post-gauntlet yet, so I can still raise it before I start. That said, I’m not sure that I’m going to. Based on my aforementioned flaws, I don’t intend to spend much time in the lab, and figure I can just use the common lab when I really need to. Again, I realize I’m going to be playing on hard mode, but that’s okay.

[Jonathan.Link]

I think everyone should have challenges to overcome in the game. Afterall, I made Talia a Tytalus, not a Verditius, spent 105 xp in Deficient Ignem, gave her Weak Magic and de-emphasized all of her starting strengths. She wants to build a Hermetic Shipyard, maybe, possibly, but she's not a member of the best house to do this. If anyone is going to do it besides a Verditius, it's a Tytalus, by gosh!

In the spirit of maximizing your desire to be out adventuring as much as possible, I might suggest Weak Enchanter, instead. This gives you the opportunity to learn Arts from books without a pretty powerful penalty. Keep in mind, adventure experience is limited to 5 xp in an Art/Ability, even with your Virtue's bonus (unless Peregrine is inclined to relax that rule for the virtue). That pales in comparison to learning from books, where even with your -3 from Poor Student you can acquire 8 xp from the MT tractatus in a season, and most tractatus hover around a SQ of 10, which for poor students are a final SQ of 7. I think any master would try and scrub that Poor Student from the apprentice, transforming it into something else, which kinda fits with my image of Eilid as I've seen her in the saga.

In a meta-game/mechanical look, you're going to be limited in adventure opportunities. You can't go on every story that there is. And you're asking an awful lot of the SG to make stories for you for 3 out of 4 seasons in a year.

[Prince_of_Boredom]

@Jonathan.Link

I think everyone should have challenges to overcome in the game. Afterall, I made Talia a Tytalus, not a Verditius, spent 105 xp in Deficient Ignem, gave her Weak Magic and de-emphasized all of her starting strengths. She wants to build a Hermetic Shipyard, maybe, possibly, but she's not a member of the best house to do this. If anyone is going to do it besides a Verditius, it's a Tytalus, by gosh!

In the spirit of maximizing your desire to be out adventuring as much as possible, I might suggest Weak Enchanter, instead. This gives you the opportunity to learn Arts from books without a pretty powerful penalty. Keep in mind, adventure experience is limited to 5 xp in an Art/Ability, even with your Virtue's bonus (unless Peregrine is inclined to relax that rule for the virtue). That pales in comparison to learning from books, where even with your -3 from Poor Student you can acquire 8 xp from the MT tractatus in a season, and most tractatus hover around a SQ of 10, which for poor students are a final SQ of 7. I think any master would try and scrub that Poor Student from the apprentice, transforming it into something else, which kinda fits with my image of Eilid as I've seen her in the saga.

In a meta-game/mechanical look, you're going to be limited in adventure opportunities. You can't go on every story that there is. And you're asking an awful lot of the SG to make stories for you for 3 out of 4 seasons in a year.

I completely understand your point, and I'll look at Weak Enchanter when I get home, but I'm guessing it won't fit my character concept. Basically the idea is a guy who has almost no interest in being stuck in a lab or library reading books (which is why Eilid essentially handed him off to another Bjornaer to finish his training), when he can be out flying or even just hanging out in town chatting with the locals. My flaws and virtues were picked with that concept in mind. I completely understand the issues I'll be facing, having played a character with the book learner virtue in the past and seeing how awesome that can be.
And I’m not really asking the SG to do anything special for me. My thought was if Talia is going out on an adventure, Astor tries to tag along. The same with any other character. Where you might play a companion because you’re magus is back in the lab, I would be playing Astor.
It is possible this character might not work in this game, and if the SG thinks that I do have a few other character concepts to switch to, but I don’t want to change Astor’s concept too much.

[Jonathan.Link]

A play by post is a bit different beast though, especially when Peregrine is running asynchronous stories like I do in Bibracte. You can have a magus tied up in a lab 3 season a year, and easily have a season where they are getting adventure. Likewise, you can be running characters in multiple stories. In 1223, Talia's taking a bit of a break, and I want to focus on grogs and Ysebrand. I still owe Peregrine a mess o' grogs.
And Talia isn't going to be too keen about another magus tagging along on her adventures. It's going to be a bit too similar to what she left behind in the Mediterranean (her back story is that Ezio is her son from Aeliophanes, from The Sundered Eagle, and the relationship ended badly) and also, you speak German, so she immediately thinks you're a Fengheld spy. Unless, of course, you want to deal with her Fengheld problems for her...

[Prince_of_Boredom]

I do understand what you're saying; I've played in a LOT of PbP/forum games and understand the dynamic. I've even played in three other Ars Magica games (not on this forum obviously) but they all went the way of most forum games after a couple of months.

I also understand the troupe-style of Ars Magica an intend to make a companion once I get through with Astor. That said, I've always been interested in making a mage more interested in adventuring and other pursuits vice working in the lab. Is it going to slow my advancement? Absolutely; but I am entering into that with my eyes wide open.

As for Talia not wanting other mages tagging along with her, that's obviously your call, but it kind of seems to go against the point of us all playing in a game together, vice us all playing a one-on-one game with Peregrine.

As for Astor speaking German, that might change depending on how I flesh out his background...but how in the world would Talia know that anyway?

[Jonathan.Link]

PbP is tough, and without a posting history, it's a shot in the dark as to what you know or don't know. Even then experienced players can come up with un-fun character concepts.
This saga is using the same asynchronous technique used in Bibracte. It keeps things moving along. It focuses character actions and walks, IMO, a good balance between the traditional TT, my magus cant do this story because he is in the lab, but he can do the next one approach. Stories may be geared to a specific character, so it is possible that any involvement Astor has in a story may only be tangential, and therefore offer little experience that season. (Peregrine, feel free to tell me to STFU, anytime. Your saga, your rules ) if your making a PC primarily reliant on adventure experience and expect to go on every story, well, sounds great, sounds interesting. I don't see it working easily or as you would expect. If the hope is that adventure allows the PC to keep reasonably close, I think you may end up disappointed, but Peregrine can offer a more informed opinion than I am.
Amul can talk about trying to keep multiple storylines and characters straight... He has a tendency to get involved in a bunch of stuff, but I move things along at the pace of who I've designed the story for, not necessarily him.

[Prince_of_Boredom]

Peregrine, any thoughts? Should I keep going or look at coming up with a new concept?

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Jonathan.Link

Keep in mind, adventure experience is limited to 5 xp in an Art/Ability, even with your Virtue's bonus (unless Peregrine is inclined to relax that rule for the virtue).

I had actually forgotten about that rule, but it's reasonable that you can take the bonus you get from Independent Study and dump it in one art/ability/what have you, even if it puts you over the 5-point limit.

@Jonathan.Link

That pales in comparison to learning from books, where even with your -3 from Poor Student you can acquire 8 xp from the MT tractatus in a season, and most tractatus hover around a SQ of 10, which for poor students are a final SQ of 7. I think any master would try and scrub that Poor Student from the apprentice, transforming it into something else, which kinda fits with my image of Eilid as I've seen her in the saga.

It's quite possible that she tried but was unsuccessful for whatever reason, and didn't protest too much when he wound up with someone else. Deep down inside, she sees Astor as her greatest (but not only) failure, and one she hopes to atone for with Ezio. It will be interesting to see her reaction when she sees Astor again after all these years.

@Jonathan.Link

In a meta-game/mechanical look, you're going to be limited in adventure opportunities. You can't go on every story that there is. And you're asking an awful lot of the SG to make stories for you for 3 out of 4 seasons in a year.

I don't plan on having any more "starring Astor" threads than I do for anyone else...at least, not unless he's a prolific poster. Maybe not as prolific as me, JL, or Marko, but who is?

Remember that, for the most part, characters are able to participate in other threads as appropriate ("Did someone say 300 game?"); if I send Talia to Fengheld, then he would need a very good reason to suddenly appear in Quedlinburg or something.

@Jonathan.Link

And Talia isn't going to be too keen about another magus tagging along on her adventures. It's going to be a bit too similar to what she left behind in the Mediterranean (her back story is that Ezio is her son from Aeliophanes, from The Sundered Eagle, and the relationship ended badly) and also, you speak German, so she immediately thinks you're a Fengheld spy. Unless, of course, you want to deal with her Fengheld problems for her...

Of course, Astor has Venus's Blessing...I have a feeling that if Astor asks to tag along, Talia would be all "Oh, hell yes!"

@Prince of Boredom

Peregrine, any thoughts? Should I keep going or look at coming up with a new concept?

Keep going if you're still comfortable with it. Hopefully we should be able to make it work out - this is a learning experience for all of us (this being my first go at running a pbp).

[Jonathan.Link]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@Jonathan.Link

And Talia isn't going to be too keen about another magus tagging along on her adventures. It's going to be a bit too similar to what she left behind in the Mediterranean (her back story is that Ezio is her son from Aeliophanes, from The Sundered Eagle, and the relationship ended badly) and also, you speak German, so she immediately thinks you're a Fengheld spy. Unless, of course, you want to deal with her Fengheld problems for her...

Of course, Astor has Venus's Blessing...I have a feeling that if Astor asks to tag along, Talia would be all "Oh, hell yes!"

Only if he puts out and doesn't mind sharing.

[Prince_of_Boredom]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Keep going if you're still comfortable with it. Hopefully we should be able to make it work out - this is a learning experience for all of us (this being my first go at running a pbp).

Sounds good. I know we're using the "After Apprenticeship" rules on pg.32, but are you factoring xp bonus virtues (Independent Study) or xp penalty flaws (Poor Student) into the 30 xp per year? I assume I will have to take Weak Scholar into account if I try to do lab work using lab texts.

@Jonathan.Link

Only if he puts out and doesn't mind sharing.

Umm, did you not notice the Carefree personality trait/flaw?

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Prince of Boredom

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Keep going if you're still comfortable with it. Hopefully we should be able to make it work out - this is a learning experience for all of us (this being my first go at running a pbp).

Sounds good. I know we're using the "After Apprenticeship" rules on pg.32, but are you factoring xp bonus virtues (Independent Study) or xp penalty flaws (Poor Student) into the 30 xp per year? I assume I will have to take Weak Scholar into account if I try to do lab work using lab texts.

I would like to (it makes sense to), but, shy of advancing him season-by-season, I'm not sure how that would work. Any ideas?

[Jonathan.Link]

It makes sense, and it's simple to do, with Affinities and Flawless Magic to apply it immediately.
Secondary Insight, Elementalist, and Independent Study are much harder to factor into the equation.
And technically speaking, if you get into applying Weak Scholar now, it should have been applied during Apprenticeship, and I think you'll find some of the spells could move out of range.

Astor's best TeFo spell learning LT is MuAn for 8+7+ 2 (Int) + 2 (Magic Theory) +1 (animal specialty) +3 (Aura) -6 Weak Scholar=17. When you go to CrAn spells it's a 16. When you go to CrAu, it's a 15. The Lt for the InAn spell, Shiver of the Lycanthrope drops to 9, and also goes out of range. Perversely, he can invent the spell from first principles in two seasons, but if he tried to follow someone else's work, he doesn't get it. Using 30 XP across the board just makes those problems go away.

[Prince_of_Boredom]

I tend to agree with JL that it's just more trouble than it's worth to factor it in. I wanted to ask just to make sure. I do remember that in one PbP game I was in, the SG gave 2xp per post-gauntlet year per xp gaining virtue (book learner, independent study, etc), but it was more important in that game since we were making magi that were 75 years past their gauntlet; and I have no idea how he dealt with xp penalty virtues like poor student.

So, working under the assumption that we're just going with the normal 30xp per year, here is Astor 10 years post gauntlet. Note I made some changes from the last version. Also, I assumed him initiating the Inner Heartbeast mystery at 9 years after his gauntlet. I have a breakdown of xp and time spent per year after the character writeup.

Astor
Covenant: Insala Canaria
Characteristics: Int +2, Per +2, Pre +2, Com +1, Str 0, Sta +2, Dex +1, Qui +1
Size: 0
Age: 35, Height: 5’11”, Weight: 170#, Gender: Male
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0
Confidence: 1(3)

Virtues:
The Gift (free)
Hermetic Magus (free)
Heartbeast (Bjornaer)
Gentle Gift (Major)
Deft Form [An] (Minor)
Improved Characteristics x2 (Minor)
Independent Study (Minor) - HoH:MC pg 86
Second Sight (Minor)
Venus’ Blessing (Minor)
Well-Traveled (Minor)

Flaws:
Environmental Magic Condition [inside] (Inner Heartbeast Initiation) RoP:M pg 48
Optimistic (Major)
Plagued by Supernatural Entity [Great Beast ancestor] (Major)
Carefree (Minor)
Deficient Form [Aq] (Minor)
Poor Student (Minor)
Weak Scholar (Minor)

Personality Traits:
Optimistic +3, Carefree +2, Proud +1

Abilities:
Scots Gaelic 5 (slang)
German 3 (slang)
Latin 4 (Hermetic usage)
Artes Liberales 1 (logic)
Athletics 2 (grace)
Awareness 2 (searching)
Bows 2 (short now)
Brawl 1 (dodging)
Code of Hermes 1 (mundane relations)
Concentration (spell concentration) 1
Charm 3 (being witty)
Etiquette 1 (peasants)
Finesse 1 (grace)
Folk Ken 2 (townsfolk)
Guile 2 (fast talk)
Heartbeast 3 (resisting shapechange)
House Bjornaer Lore 5 (ancestors)
Hunt 1 (tracking)
Loch Leglean Tribunal Area Lore 2 (geography)
Magic Lore 2 (creatures)
Magic Theory 3 (Muto)
Parma Magica 1 (Muto)
Penetration 1 (Muto)
Philosophiae 1 (metaphysics)
Rhine Tribunal Area Lore 2 (geography)
Second Sight 3 (regiones)
Stealth 1 (sneak)
Survival 1 (forest)

Arts:
Cr 8 In 5 Mu 10 Pe 0 Re 5
An 8 Aq 0 Au 8 Co 5 Ig 0
Im 1 Me 1 Te 0 Vi 0

Spells:
True Rest of the Injured Brute (CrAn 20)
Shiver of the Lycanthrope (InAn 10)
Beast of Outlandish Size (MuAn 15)
Doublet of Impenetrable Silk (MuAn15)
Form of the Sanguine Heartbeast (MuAn 20)
Charge of the Angry Winds (CrAu 15)
Whispering Winds (InAu 15)
Bind Wound (CrCo 10)
Palm of Flame (CrIg 5)
Aura of Ennobled Presence (MuIm 10)

Heartbeast – Golden Eagle
Characteristics: Int +2, Per +3, Pre +2, Com +1, Str +1, Sta +3, Dex +2, Qik +3
Size: -2
Confidence Score: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws: Keen Vision
Qualities: Fast Flier, Keen Eyesight, Pursuit Predator, Extra Natural Weapons (claws)
Personality Traits: Royal +3
Reputations: None
Combat:
Talons: Init +2, Attack +8, Defense +10, Damage +4
Beak: Init +3, Atk +8, Defense +7, Damage +2
Soak: +3
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0/0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-3), -3 (4-6), -5 (7-9), Incapacitated (10-12), Dead (13+)
Abilities:
Athletics 3 (flying)
Awareness 4 (spotting prey)
Brawl 3 (talons)
Hunt 4 (game birds)
Survival 3 (mountainous terrain)

Inner Heartbeast – Golden Eagle of Virtue
Characteristics: Int +2, Per +6, Pre +2, Com +1, Str +1, Sta +3, Dex +2, Qik +3
Size: -2
Confidence Score: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws: Keen Vision, Mythic Feat
Qualities: Fast Flier, Keen Eyesight, Pursuit Predator, Extra Natural Weapons (claws)
Personality Traits: Royal +3
Reputations: None
Combat:
Talons: Init +2, Attack +8, Defense +10, Damage +4
Beak: Init +3, Atk +8, Defense +7, Damage +2
Soak: +3
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0/0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-3), -3 (4-6), -5 (7-9), Incapacitated (10-12), Dead (13+)
Abilities:
Athletics 3 (flying)
Awareness 4 (spotting prey)
Brawl 3 (talons)
Hunt 4 (game birds)
Survival 3 (mountainous terrain)

Breakdown of XP and time spent:

Early Childhood - 45xp
Scot Gaelic - Native
Athletics - 5xp
Awareness - 5xp
Brawl - 5xp
Charm - 5xp
Folk Ken - 5xp
Guile - 5xp
Loch Leglean Tribunal Area Lore - 5xp
Stealth - 5xp
Survival - 5xp

Later Life (5 years) - 75xp
Athletics - 10xp
Awareness - 10xp
Concentration - 5xp
Charm - 10xp
Folk Ken - 10xp
Hunt - 5xp
Loch Leglean Tribunal Area Lore - 10xp
Second Sight - 15xp

Well-Traveled - 50xp
German - 30xp
Etiquette - 5xp
Rhine Tribunal Area Lore - 15xp

Apprenticeship - 240xp
Latin - 50
Artes Liberales - 5xp
Heartbeast - 5xp
Magic Theory - 15xp
Parma Magica - 5xp
House Bjornaer Lore - 15xp
Penetration - 5xp
Finesse - 5xp
Code of Hermes - 5xp
Magic Lore - 5xp
Bows - 5xp

Creo - 28xp
Muto - 36xp
Animal - 28xp
Aurum - 28xp

Post-Gauntlet Year 1 - 30xp
Heartbeast - 25xp
Philosophiae - 5xp

Post Gauntlet Year 2 - 30xp
Second Sight - 15xp
Magic Lore - 10xp

Creo - 1xp
Rego - 4xp

Post Gauntlet Year 3 - 30xp
House Bjornaer Lore - 15xp

Creo - 7xp
Animal - 8xp

Post Gauntlet Year 4 - 30xp
House Bjornaer Lore - 20xp

Corpus - 10xp

Post Gauntlet Year 5 - 30xp
House Bjornaer Lore - 25xp

Corpus - 5xp

Post Gauntlet Year 6 - 30xp
Magic Theory - 15xp

Muto - 9xp
Rego - 6xp

Post Gauntlet Year 7 - 30xp
Charm - 15xp
Bows - 10xp

Rego - 5xp

Post Gauntlet Year 8 - 30xp
Guile - 5xp

Intellego - 15xp
Aurum - 8xp
Imaginem - 1xp
Mentem - 1xp

Post Gauntlet Year 9
Spring - Find Great Beast Ancestor
Summer - Complete quests for Great Beast Ancestor
Fall - Initiate Mystery of the Inner Heartbeast
Winter - Invent Whispering Winds (InAu 15) from lab text
Lab Total 21 -6 (Weak Scholar) = 15

Post Gauntlet Year 10 - 30xp
Guile - 5xp

Muto - 10xp

Heartbeast Brawl - 15xp