I see where you are coming from on this one. It's what our gaming group calls the "wrapper" effect.
You magically move an object directly, and the object is magically resisted.
You magically move a wrapper that grabs the object and moves it, and the object is no longer magically resisted.
This sounds "broken", in the sense that an "ugly", "unnatural" way of approaching a problem yields what appears to be the most efficient solution, and bypasses a fundamental limit of the rules (in this case, magic resistance).
However, there are two issues to consider.
The first is that if you rule out "wrapper" effects, you are also saying magically gigantified grogs cannot wield mundanely giant clubs without being magically resisted. You are also saying magically animated corpses cannot wield mundanely sharp swords without being magically resisted. Et cetera. From your point of view, this may be a bug or a feature (and I can see how it could be a feature -- that's jonathan.link's point of view, for example) but even if it's a feature it runs against the Ars Magica "canon", and it does open up whole cans of subtle worms.
The second is that there is already a balance built in the rules. If the magic bypasses magic resistance, it can't hit automatically (this has a number of reasonable metaphysical explanations -- the way I see it is that the magic can't "account" for the target if it can't "touch" it). In some cases it's worth to trade one limitation for the other, in other cases it's not. Overall, I think it's a fair exchange.
By the same token then you should disallow Wings of the Soaring Wind, since the practical effect is making the magus fly, and that should be Rego Corpus, not some lower level / more powerful guideline based around creating wind.
I have to agree with ironboundtome when he writes:
Basically, one of the things I like of Ars Magica is finding inventive ways to achieve results. You are imprisoned inside a prison cell, but your only strong Art is Creo Aquam, what do you do?
Of course, there must be some oversight. The idea is that clever workarounds should be "aesthetically pleasing" (stuff that would not make one's nose wrinkle if found in a fantasy novel -- of course this is at least somewhat subjective), and should not unbalance the game (no achieving through a clever workaround with no drawbacks through first magnitude spontaneous magic what should take at least a sixth magnitude Ritual or enchanted device).
I really do not think that Gauntlet is unbalancing, since (as has been said) allowing a limited range of activities to be performed with Strength +5 is really minor. And I don't find it "ugly" -- a gauntlet that makes the gauntleted strength really strong is the staple of fantasy, and achieving it by making the gauntlet's steel "alive" so it responds to the magus' lightest touch like a well-behaved pet sounds fine to me. This is very subjective, of course.
Actually, I've never fought with a sword, but I've fought with staff and knife, so I think I see where you are coming from.
The point is that the gauntlet must not be clever at all. It must just follow the magus' movements in a very dumb, if precise, fashion.
Think of a Creo Ignem spell that makes a group of five balls shine brightly in the darkness. If I start juggling the balls crazily, I get all sort of "WOW" inspiring light effects. But this does not mean I should add complexity to the spell, because the effect is really dumb: it makes the balls shine. All the complexity stems from my mundane juggling. Now, if I created five spherical lights out of thin air, and juggled them crazily through magic, that would deserve a complexity modifier. But it's a very different thing.
Hmm. Really? I'd envisioned it as exerting force on the gauntlet so it's maintained static to the target (the hand -- it's easier to imagine if you think that there's some soft padding between the hand and the steel, which I believe was often the case). Of course, should a sufficiently "immobile" object block the movement of the gauntlet, it stops.
And yes, I hoped that I'd not have to type more, but was mostly expecting this next bit:
This isn't nearly as naked a wrapper. All the magical effect does is increase the size of the grog. That's a pleasant, simple obvious MuCo. The grog still uses his own skill. Big grog with big club. No weird rulings, no tricky "hey, can I do this." The answer is clearly Duh, of course you can.
Same thing. Although do note that getting a zombie who can wield a normal sword effectively and know whom to wield it against and obey your commands rather than just attack you or stand around is a far more expensive affair than the previous straightforward MuCo on the grog!
Go ahead, build this spell. It will probably be suitably expensive.
Etc indeed!
These are simple, straightforward spells whose cost is proportionate to the effect. They do work and should work.
By contrast, the spell you propose twists all sorts of rules, requires all kinds of lenient rulings in some cases, and flat ignoring rules in others.
It's very obviously a wrapper with no real purpose other than being a wrapper.
Even if the spell worked according to a reasonable interpretation of the rules--and it doesn't--a GM should Just Say No, because This is Wrong. The result isn't thematically appropriate, like the giant grog, or cinematically appropriate, like the zombie. It's just a rules hack that doesn't even work as a rules hack, because it is ignoring all the rules that are inconvenient.
[/quote]
Sure it is, once you have set the level and requisites and Finesse roll (not weapon skill) for the spell appropriately, which you have not IMNSHO.
FWIW, I live with these rules but I don't like sneaking around MR because it stopped being clever more than 10 years ago. Were I to rewrite AM, I'd roll Finesse and MR and ordinary resistance, etc, into a single, general spell rule with one die roll per spell, and there would be no bypass of MR, though MR would work differently. I'd also make Bonisagus a rival to Aristotle and Plato, with Hermetic Magic a kind of demonstration that his metaphysics are superior (though the theory clearly has flaws, so unifying all three philosophers remains a worthy goal.) That way, the magic system would not have to deal with Aristotelian weirdness that gets in the way.
As for the first of these statements, I'm not really aware of twisting any rules at all (save possibly one, see below). So... could you type a little more and explain?
As for the second, while I did come to it because we were discussing the wrapper effect, and it's written to very explicitly remind the reader of the wrapper effect, it need not be. Suppose I had not mentioned wielding a weapon. Imagine a fragile Terram magus with a Magical Focus in metals -- think of medieval Magneto from X-Men. I can totally see him wearing a metal gauntlet with which he slaps super-powerfully anyone who annoys him. The fact that if he happens to hold a cudgel in that hand, the cudgel is not magically resisted, is just how Magic Resistance is set up in Ars Magica.
Now, in regard to the telekinetic movement of the metal gauntlet, I think I see one point you, and a few others, are making. Magneto would concentrate on the gauntlet, and move it with the equivalent of Hermetic Finesse. That's because Magneto would not be able to create an effect whereby a small sphere of steel follows him around, hovering exactly 1 meter above his head, even when he's sleeping (I guess. I'm not really an X-Men expert). Can Hermetic magic do this? I think it's a good question (it's the floating crown question). My troupe has always assumed it can be done, without ever thinking about it; but I agree it's not obvious. I do think it's an issue that deserves its own thread, so I am opening one now, here.
The ability to transmit weapon skill is something you just made up. Throwing something with Rego is Finesse, not throwing. Crafting something with Rego is Finesse, not Crafting.
The ability to move metal is surely ReTe. But the ability to move Terram in response to your physical movements rather than your using Finesse to move the gauntlet is something very tricky, that you once again made up. It is totally reasonable for a magus to concentrate on how he wants the gauntlet to move using ReTe; for simple movements I'd happily handwave concentration and just assume it's effortless! It is not at all the same thing to have a ReTe effect that moves a Gauntlet without the magus having to concentrate at all, based solely on subtle hand and arm and body movements. This is a very tricky effect. It's not at all in the spell guidelines, or implied by them. It's utterly different from the norm.
By the way, the Finesse roll ought to be at a massive penalty: It's a Finesse roll to directly affect something, like hurling a boulder. I'd toss a +3 to +6 penalty for what you want to do. Maybe an extra botch die or two as well, because this is difficult.
ReTe lets a magus move Terram. There's a spell (maybe a guideline?) that lets a magus move Terram around as would a person with Str 5. There's nothing at all that suggests that a magus using this guideline can move something arbitrary such that it acts on something else as though it were a person with Str 5. Indeed, the two are quite different. I note precedent: The ReTe guidelines for throwing stuff don't deal in "throw something as though you have Str 5" but are based on damage and a unique range increment. (I think that Rego rules totally based on what a person can do would be good, rather than the one weird exception we have from older editions, but these are the rules we have.)
The cheap "natural movement" guideline you chose for all the possible hand movements of a gauntlet does not strike me as the intent of natural movement. I don't have the guidelines here, so am not sure whether this is closer to the mark than the next higher one.
By the way, learning how to use a force multiplying gauntlet of this kind is itself tricky! This itself might deserve its own skill. After all, there is absolutely no magic (Corpus!) here to help out.
Also, since there is no Corpus, the magus is likely to get injured very, very quickly from this heavy gauntlet chafing, yanking, jerking at his hands. Hitting something with Str 5 involves moving the sword faster.
Also, the ReTe cast only on the gauntlet only holds up the Gauntlet with Str 5, or whatever it is. It in no way grants Str 5 to the gauntlet. I don't know where you're even getting this from. Sure, you can use a ReTe guideline to hold as much stuff as you want, at which point the spell is affecting the stuff. Heck, a spell cast at touch (similar to Treading the Ashen Path) that lets you pick up any boulder you touch all day long works for me. (Throwing it is tougher though!)
I think I'm forgetting a few things. But I think this is enough.
Sure, but landing safely when Rego-jumping is Quickness-Encumbrance, not Finesse.
An animated corpse swinging a blade uses its weapon skill, not Finesse.
Baking bread in a magically hot oven is Craft:Baking, not Finesse.
While it's not canonical, I'd say it's reasonable that a magical crossbow that shoots mundane bolts very powerfully ("Vilano style") is wielded with a crossbow skill, not Finesse.
I don't think I'm twisting any rule here. As Tellus pointed out, the magus is attacking with his weapon skill. The spell is not being used to attack, but just to add push to the magus push. If I Rego your image two paces to the side of you, and you are dancing, the image dances based on your Dancing skill, not on my Finesse.
That's the issue I was mentioning, and that we are discussing in the Sword of Damocles thread, here. Please contribute to it!
Well, there's a spell (the Unseen Porter), plus a separate guideline for a different effect (the Hermetic Generans), both assuming that unmodified ReTe can manipulate stuff like a Str+5 person can. Obviously, some discretion is required in such a choice. ReTe can, without modifiers, move much more than a Strength +5 person can move, in certain instances (e.g. when moving, however slowly, a base individual of dirt, mud, or clay -- 10 cubic paces!).
This is definitely a judgement call, but pushing more strongly (but still with a human force) something that is already pushed by a person, seems to me as "natural" as it gets without being so natural that it happens on its own, without magic. This is the criterion we use in our troupe:
If it's the classic "elephant in the room", something that is so obvious that it's immediately recognized as "unnatural" even by someone that's not paying close attention, it's highly unnatural. E.g. a box floating around on its own.
If it's something that may escape a casual glance, but will be seen as "unnatural" by someone paying close attention, it's slightly unnatural. E.g. a glass very slowly sliding across a table, a wheel that keeps spinning indefinitely without anyone turning it.
If it's something that will keep even a persistent observer in doubt about whether he's seeing anything "unnatural", then it's natural. E.g. something pushed by a human that moves as if pushed by a stronger human, a lock that unlocks or jams, a door that slowly swings or open or shut.
This is something I do not understand. Learning how to use servo-assisted steering was completely effortless and virtually instantaneous for every driver I've known.
If you read the description of the spell, you'd see that it's impossible for the gauntlet to exert more than the slightest pressure on the hand, because that slightest pressure will make it move so as to ease that pressure. It's like having a host of bodyguards that push the crowds away from you when you walk in a crowded place. It certainly does not require you to re-learn walking, nor are you jostled by the bodyguards.
It's a pity that despite trying very hard, I failed to convey in the spell description that the gauntlet makes every movement as if moved by a wearer with Strength +5 -- except that the force for those movements is not exerted internally by the wearer, but by the magic. A few people got it, but for such a simple concept I certainly did a bad job explaining it.
I really am done, though I'll clear up any of my lack of clarity:
Hmm. It shouldn't be. Heck, jumping for distance through mundane means shouldn't be quickness either.
Of course! The same way that if I Creo an animal, it uses its scores, not mine.
Of course. The only thing the magic has done is heat the oven. The spell doesn't do any baking.
Depends. If the magic is used to draw a crossbow beyond the ability of human str, then yes. If the magic actually propels the bolt, then no.
None of these bear resemblance to your spell.
Which in no way applies, because the magus' is not using the force of his body except to control the gauntlet.
Exactly. Well, almost: It substitutes its effect. Which is itself illegitimate, as I already described.
Sure. Your spell does nothing of the kind.
Already did! /3424
Sure! I've made mine.
But learning how to drive was not. And your gauntlet spell is not equivalent. Again, the only thing your spell does is move the gauntlet. It is not a force-feedback servo mechanism. Getting the gauntlet to apply exactly the right force without ruining your arm is Very Tricky.
Which is why such a spell needs to have magnitudes for being Very Tricky. And it needs Intellego to sense the pressure. If you want the gauntlet to act as though it were weightless using Rego, this should be more difficult than simply having a Perdo requisite to remove the property.
Oh, I got that.
I just utterly and totally disagree with your result.
In my modest experience, blows are not wielded or pushed by the hand of the swordsman, not even by the arms solely, but by the whole body. So wielding a sword as if your hand (gauntlet) had a strenght of +5 doesn't give you much more push. IMO, this gauntlet would only strain the wrist of the user without much benefit.
Think to a kind of exoskelet if you do want this kind of effect. For instance, something like a full maximilian plate armour (which wasn't invented in the canonical game period).
OTOH, such a gauntlet would be useful to exert a strong grip on something, strangle someone (with MR)...
Hey, none of the examples you brought up bore any resemblance either
But maybe there's a closer one. I grab a horse and Rego Animal it into charging you. With me on top. With a lance. The vast majority of the force with which I skewer you is provided by the horse, even LoM says so! I just provide a little nudge. So. Do I use Per+Finesse, or Dex+Single Weapon to see if I hit? I bet you'll say Per+Finesse, but that's only because you want to confuse me and avoid being skewered. Which doesn't make you a bad person!
But I know that to hit you well and true, I have to use Dex+Single Weapon.
Alas, wouldn't that be true if the magus were a valiant knight and naturally endowed with Strength +5 too?
No, it adds its effect to the -- admittedly far lesser -- push of the magus.
Which is perfectly legitimate, just like a charging Horse adds its force to the tiny nudge a knight gives to his lance.
But issues of legitimacy tend to be debated...
Sure. That's why we have the magus use his Weapon skill rather than Finesse!
Driving, or rather steering, is the equivalent of using Weapon skill. Servo-assisted steering is the equivalent of using Weapon skill with a Gauntlet of Ogre Power.
As far as I can tell all my car's servo assisted mechanism does is turn the wheel. It really has no mechanism to avoid ruining my arm! Alas, should I be worried? You made me nervous.
Well. We'll have to disagree here Thanks to One Shot, I am now armed with the knowledge of Circular Wall of Shields (MoH p.50), that seems to do that very same thing. With no extra magnitudes, Intellego Requisites etc. etc. It has a few extra special effects too, all free!
Let me finish by making very clear that the gauntlet is not acting as it were just weightless; but check the magnitudes for flying through ReCo, vs. the higher ones for becoming weightless through PeCo!
What you say about the body providing the push is very true. But, imagine wielding a lightsaber. It cuts even through large chunks of steel without having to put your weight behind it. And of course, it's no more likely to strain your wrist than wiggling a wand. That's what wielding a sword with the gauntlet feels like. Light as a light-saber, but cuts as if a Str +5 person were putting his whole strength behind it.
The basic way to move a human is Rego Corpus. Doing it in other ways should either be higher spell level or come with logical disadvantages and/or side effects.
Wings of the Soaring Wind qualifies - it requires Finesse and is associated with a really big gust of wind, which I would expect to be very noisy and perhaps cause unwanted effects, such as blowing out candles as the Magus goes by.
If you assume that the spell guidelines are based roughly on perceived game power level (and I do think that's a major intent from the designer), then finding ways to achieve identical effects at lower level does indeed start to "break" the game.
That's problem solving, not rules abuse. Rules abuse would be boosting characteristics by using CrAq to enhance bloodflow or create strength potions, at a lower level than the usual CrCo enhancer spells.
Personally, I do not like this design philosophy. I think it's not part of Ars Magica, in part because it's hard to adjudicate. For example, I'm not going to work out the numbers, but I would not consider it "wrong" if making a carpet fly through Rego Animal turned out to be a more effective means of flying than Rego Corpus.
What I'd try to avoid are effects that do not feel "mythical" or are grossly out of proportion with their level in terms of "game balance" (again, a very subjective thing in a game where some truly world-altering effects are readily available to the most "junior" magi). To me, a low level spell enchanting a gauntlet so that the wearer can use the gauntleted hand as if he were really strong is adequately mythical, and really, not unbalancing at all even as a first magnitude spell.
Of course, YSMV -- and thanks for the feedback, it's always useful and appreciated.
I think you're comparing things that are not comparable. Lightsaber as we can imagine it, doesn't use any force at all. The gauntlet uses force and increases it. For me, it only increases the grip of the wielder on the sword's hilt. No swordsman uses the muscles of his hand (nor the forearm) to actually give push to the blow. A sword is swung, not pushed.
I have practiced with people[sup]1[/sup] who tried to wield a sword using the strength of their arms. No threat there. Which is why we spend so much time trying to get them to use their body instead.
[sup]1[/sup] read "beginners" or "those who should know better!"
Quoting Ezzelino : Hey, none of the examples you brought up bore any resemblance either
But maybe there's a closer one. I grab a horse and Rego Animal it into charging you. With me on top. With a lance. The vast majority of the force with which I skewer you is provided by the horse, even LoM says so! I just provide a little nudge. So. Do I use Per+Finesse, or Dex+Single Weapon to see if I hit? I bet you'll say Per+Finesse, but that's only because you want to confuse me and avoid being skewered. Which doesn't make you a bad person!
But I know that to hit you well and true, I have to use Dex+Single Weapon.
You compare again uncomparable things.
Gauntlet wielding sword : using a magical item to handle things --> finesse skill use.
Man on a magical charging horse : the magical thing (horse) does not handle the lance, but its wielder does --> one handed weapon skill use by the rider of the horse.
But you could have a finesse roll to drive precisely the horse's charge (if it was a starting impulse making the horse charge for a given duration) or a concentration roll to maintain concentration (if it was a concentration spell).
I can't think of any reasons why moving a carpet plus a person atop it should be easier than simply moving the person alone. Perhaps the difference is so trivial that the spells should be of the same level, but the carpet version certainly shouldn't be easier.
I agree it's now always easy to adjudicate, but if there are published guidelines for an effect and a player comes up with the same effect at much lower level, this is a good reality check.
Gauntlets of Ogre power certainly have the right feel for the game, at least IMO. The level of the magic to create such gauntlets is irrelevant to the "mythical" feel. The old D&D item boosted the wearer's strength. There are well-defined guidelines in the core AM5 book for boosting strength. To me, this is the right way to build the item with an appropriate effect level.
/3424