new spell(armor of the deamon)

armor of the deamon effect-you gain +3 to your natural armor & +5 to resist rolls to fire
requisite-mutocorpus(pyro,Iforget what you call the fire teqnuiqe)25
tell me what you think of this spell & what sort of items it could go into.

For a 5th magnitude spell the benefits aren't very impressive, sorry. You could do better by getting a Verditius to make a suit of armour as an "Item of Quality" (bringing the +7 Protect Wearer form bonus to the surface) and subsequently enchanting it with a ward against fire (which would negate any need for any roll to resist since it would keep all fire away completely, natural or magical)

Besides, for any armour you would want a constant effect whilst it was being worn rather than a Moon Duration.

Better to make the Duration Concentration and have the item maintain concentration, then you could end the effect or reactivate it at will.

Ward against Heat and Flames ReIg (page 143 ARM5:CR) is level 25 itself and protects against heat/flame doing less than or equal to +15 damage, so this would be a much more efficient benefit for the cost.

Well, that's what I thought at first as well, but the rules on this inner mystery state that you add the bonus to any roll when using the item. Since soak is not a dice roll you do not gain the +7 soak bonus. However, getting an excellent armour and enchanting it with bear´s fortitude or some similar MuCo effect will do the job.
By the way, does this bonus stack with the tough virtue?
When using a leather armour you could also make it an invested device and imbue it with personal ward against wood and personal ward against steel. This way your champion would be nearly invincable. (But then again, can a leather armour hold enough spell-levels to archieve this? - Serf's parma!)

Not entirely correct Vetrenius. I suggest you reread the Combat rules section on page 171 of the core rules. In a combat, the defender also rolls a stress die to generate his defence total. It is to that roll, quite legitimately, that the quality armour's bonus would be applied. Thus it would be a pre-soak modifier.

Only real caveat I forgot is that the Verditius would need a 7 in philosophiae at the time the armour was crafted in order to raise the full latent form bonus to the surface. At any rate, most Verdis would have a Philosophiae of 3-5 which would offer comparable physical protection bonus to the spell above.

Since the armour could easily hold more than one enchantment, Bear's Fortitude is also a good suggestion! :slight_smile:

Hmmm... leather is 2 base points and size could be conceivably stretched to "large" (since a full Hauberk could be arguably equated to the size of a shield or staff in total surface area or mass at the least) so that's 8 pawns to open, thus 80 spell levels.

I think that would be enough for two or even three wards and maybe a forth minor token effect.

So why bothering whether or not an armour of quality adds to defence total. You could make a shield of quality granting a +5 bonus on that roll. As you said , BoXer, most Verdi won't be able to reach any bonus higher than that.

Sure you could do that as well, but in this instance the discussion was on alternate suggestions for the OG's armour idea.

If given the choice between an armour with no defence roll bonus and one with, would you really turn your nose up at it in favour of a shield? Why not just make both lol.

ok then but what do you think of this spell in general?

Well, as I ventured originally, it doesn't seem to be very well thought out as you have first presented it. Let's run through the mechanics of spell creation a bit and see if we can reformat it into proper Ars spell format (and maybe give you a bit more bang for the buck, as it were, in the process).

Firstly what you are describing is not one simple spell. It is actually two distinct spell effects requiring differing Arts (or more correctly a Base effect with an additional effect requiring wholly additional requisite Arts).

Now for the base effect (+3 to armour) we should look at the Muto Terram guidelines to find a base level for changing normal metal armour (iron) to make it harder (more resilient to damage) for a better soak.

On page 154 we see two possibilities:
Base level 1 effect: change one property (hardness) of dirt (+2 mags for metal) for a base 3 starting point, or
Base level 3 effect: change dirt so it is slightly unnatural (+2 mags for metal) for a base 5 starting point.

Going with the first for economy:

we then need to decide the range. Since this is defensive we will assume it will only be cast on sodales and friends/allies so we'll stick with Touch range (+1).

Next, we have to decide Duration. You suggest Moon, which frankly is a bit excessive given that a person would not usually wear armour for such a length of time. Diameter would be best to see a fighter through a combat (diameter=20 combat rounds) but we'll compromise with Sun (+2).

Target is Individual for our purposes here.

So we already have:

Now you wish to enhance the spell by adding an additional ward against flame and heat. Such an effect is ReIg and already exists as the spell I mentioned in my earlier post (Ward Against Heat and Flames, level 25, page 143).

According to the rules for requisites, requisites which add effects to a spell require addition magnitudes. Normally an added effect will add +1 magnitudes to a final spell level unless they are 6th magnitude (level 30) or higher as stand alone effects. Since WAHaF is only 5th magnitude, we just need to add +1 mag to the above spell. We do however need to include both a Rego and Ignem requisite to the spell formula.

Thus we get:

Now some (including myself) would probably consider that too much of a bargain for the benefit, so we could return to the MuTe guidelines (pg 154) and opt for a base level 3(slightly unnatural) instead of Base 1. The logic of this is that the change the spell makes to the armour is similar to that made to swords by the Edge of the Razor spell (i.e. " a degree unequaled by manual methods").

This would raise the spell to your originally proposed level 25 but provide you with much more fire protection than you originally envisioned.

Just remember that whilst the requisite effect only adds 1 magnitude to the spell, you still have to replace the higher Technique score with the lower and so too with the Form scores for your final casting total.

Looks like you wanted it to look, no?

Hmmm.. but wait (preemptive review)...

If we look again carefully at the Requisites explanation section (pg 114) we see that a spell which has additional effect requisites must use the higher of the two effects for its primary Art forms.

Thus we compare WAHaF (level 25) with our modified "Aegis of the Mythic Hero" spell effect (level 20) and see that our combined spell must actually be a ReIg(Mu,Te) spell. This means our Base is that of WAHaF (25) with an additional magitude for the Armour strengthening affect making the final level of the spell 30.

This would satisfy most SGs, I'm sure.

Hope that helped! :slight_smile:

Since the original spell only asked for a +5 against fire, that wouldn't require the +2 for up to 15 damage, and he'd end up with a lvl 20 spell, or if he stays with the original duration, a lvl 25...

However, we should also note that Abe actually asked for something that increased the targets natural armour (soak), and that would be MuCo base 15. Adding duration moon (+3) and an ignem requisite for an additional fireresistant property of your skin (no rego required) (+1), places this at an impressive lvl 35... Nasty... You might consider cutting the duration a little... Myself, I'd cut the duration to diameter and drop the additional fireresistance - after all the soak bonus applies to fire as well...

Mind you - this is one of your better suggestions, even if you sound like you're talking about DnD...

True, it wouldn't require +2 for additional fire protection, but my offering was to see what could be achieved within the ballpark of his original estimate. If he would prefer +5 to +15 or even +10, that's his prerogative entirely.

My mistake then. I read it as a spell designed to enhance normal armour.

I have to disagree with you here. If the Ignem requisite effect was a "Muto" Ignem effect, then no additional Technique would be required. Since fire protection is "Rego" Ignem, both Arts apply as reqs IMO.

So for all that you've said, your option offers LESS protection at higher cost. I think I have a good idea which option the smart shopper would pick. :wink:

Yep, my preference as well (as noted above) since combats would usually not last longer than 20 rounds unless youre fighting a group.

Sure, but a +3 natural armour soak is diddly squat against most decent fire spells. I think he wanted the fire protection to make it fit with the "demon" armour motif, not much more than a derivation of "Gift of the Bear's Fortitude" otherwise.

Rego Ignem is required to keep fire away, but not to make skin fireresistant. This actually relates more to the effect we're working on, but with a limited scope... Basicly it reads somewhere along the line of: "tripple this bonus against fire."

Depends on what you're trying to do - if you haven't got any metal armour, or don't like being weighted down (maybe you even have a restriction preventing you from casting while wearing metal), then a spell to improve metal armours wouldn't be too useful...


I'm beginning to consider introducing Abe as a non-hermetic sorcerer in our saga... With the spells he introduced here, at their original levels (possibly adjusted slightly for balance...)
He could be a wonderful diabolist, wouldn't you say?

LOL. Yes I had that impression myself! :wink:

Mind you, if one is going to incorporate diabolists into a saga, better those without adequate protection! :smiley:

ok then level should be 35 for the total.
duration should be ring(see the magicians book for ars magica for explantation,basically though this spell lasts as long as you wear some sort of ring or other article of clothing sellected by the caster at the time of the castting)

Abe are you for real or is this just having a laugh at our expense?

Seriously my friend, you need to at least invest in a copy of the 5th edition rulebook. Ring duration is typically for spells that you wish to maintain permanently like prison wards that trap an entity or creature/person within the ring or protect those within from specific threats outside the ring.

Yes it could be used, but not without a concrete ring involved and even then to use such for any kind of armour I would suggest it be made an invested effect in something like a belt or ring.

What you need to be aware of is that if such a duration is used and the person protected keeps the protection active permanently, he/she is going to accumulate serious warping points per year and could be rolling for twilight within a handful of years.

Keep it at max Sun Duration or even diameter for when such armour is absolutely necessary.

your right of course,the duration should be changed to sun & the durations hould be set at 30 or less.
that better?

a simaler spell could be used to get the caster resistance to cold & natural armor!