Non-fatiguing spontaneous magic for the thrifty covenant

That's certainly not how we interpret it. If you look at existing spells, that affect a set of targets until "they" leave an area or group, they tend to expire for each target as soon as that target leaves the area or group.

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Which it is, in English :slight_smile: Check out the Cambridge Dictionary, for example.
Note the difference between rim and lip in a container, such as the amphora you aptly mention, where the outermost boundary of the container (the rim) is not its "entry point" (the lip).

At least, that's how I understand it. So here we certainly both mean the same thing, but we may attribute a different meaning to our words.

Hey folks, I do know that there's a lot of similar stuff around. But the reason why doing as Xavi suggests:

In general for this, search for Circle Ring spells and cheap items.

is only half of the issue, is that I'd like to see rough estimates of how much one can save through that spell (ideally, immediately below the spell, for easy reference). That's probably the trickiest part of it all, as silveroak pointed out.

For example, Lamps of Eternity saves ... ? I'd say it saves a little of provisions, but mostly for those inhabitants worth several points, and a little of lab costs. Poor laborers work mostly from sunup to sundown. I don't think it should be worth much more than 1 pound/year, total, except in really really large lavish covenants, or ones where darkness is a real issue for a significant portion of the year (note that in most natural environments, if you have very short days, you also have cold, so you probably need heating as well... so unless matched to a lightless source of magical heating, magical illumination does not contribute much). But maybe I'm wrong?

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Hey, Rise of the Feathery body with R:Per, D:Diam is level 5 and quite perfect for this type of stuff!
Alternatively, some sort of magically automated, moveable "elevator" would be an interesting option ... and in fact, could provide modest cost savings all across the board, from servants to thatchers.

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Do you have a reference for this?

Ok, let's try reformat one of Xavi's contributions, with the full level computation, and a guess of its savings.

A healthy hole PeCo ... ? R:Touch, R:Circle, T:Ring
A ring surrounding a hole that destorys human matter that tresspasses the cicle's border. Generally placed somewhat low in a shaft, this method ensures that the depositions of the castle folk have less chances to cause health problems.

Ok, first of all: what level should this be? And should it be even "legal" (affecting stuff that enters the Circle after the spell is cast)? I remember there was a long discussion on the latter point, somewhat inconclusive, noting that there are some early/legacy spells that affect everything entering a target area even after the spell is cast, but none of the later spells in the series do so by explicit design. Note that the example of PeTe-created hole in the ground that destroys any earth thrown into it is not entirely relevant: you are "wounding" the earth, and preventing it from being "healed".
If it is admissible, as for the actual level, PeCo base 5 destroys a whole corpse. This would bring the total to Level 20 (base 5+1 Touch +2 Ring) or level 15 with the usual D:Conc, boosted to D:Ring via formulaic ReVi.
But there's no guideline for destroying smaller amounts of "corpus" stuff, unless they are part of a body. What baseline would you adopt?

And... How much is this worth in savings? Now, this is what I like of this spell. If you try to see what kind of mundane activity it substitutes for, you don't get a clear understanding (some points of servants maybe -- they do not need to clean the latrines so often). I would argue that the way to look at it is another: this spell provides a "luxury" that is not otherwise easily obtained via mundane skills.

So, I'd say that it provides "generic" savings towards all inhabitants with a +1 Living conditions modifier. Basically, it contributes part of the extra point(s) that inhabitants with a high living standard require. Instead of having (slightly) better food, more servants etc. they get clean latrines; they live differently, but just as "luxuriously". Being very partial to clean bathrooms, I'd rate this as reducing the effective inhabitant points by 2 for every 10 inhabitants with a Living conditions modifier of 1+ (if a sufficiently large number are cast and maintained).

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target ring specifically states that it targets things inside the ring when the spell is cast until they leave.

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Keeping in line with detailing ideas posted by Xavi here is my attempt at the following spell.

The base is for a fire doing +5 damage, which is the lowest level of fire that can be conjured with Creo Ignem. This is base 4.

The flaming circle
Level 15 CrIg
Range: Touch, Duration: Ring, Target: Individual
base 4 +1 touch +2 circle.

This spell creates a flame that burns within the circle for a long as the circle remains undisturbed. This flame can be used to heat rooms, cook food, and provide light.

How much is this worth in savings? This spell is sort of borderline when it comes to casting it as non-fatiguing spontaneous magic. The savings from a single casting is also debatable. Really the benefit here is that its duration is potentially infinite and replacing all of the fires in the fireplaces in the covenant can be done by a group of magi using fatiguing spontaneous magic over a period of about a season. If used to replace most of the fires in the covenant it can save considerable sums of money by making fuel and candles unnecessary and providing heat for cooking. This can save labor if the covenant relies of labor to gather fuel or money if the covenant buys fuel. I personally think it is pretty fair comparison to the three laborers worth of savings provided by the woodshed of plenty in Through the Aegis p. 152. It could also be treated as a magnitude 2 effect that provides savings on consumables meaning that it saves 2 pounds worth of consumables.

Edit: I mistakenly wrote Duration:Circle, instead of Duration: Rind and I initially miscalculated the level to 10th and I have adjusted the above so that the spell in now correct.

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@silveroak (asking for a reference to cases where a subject leaving an area or group targeted by a spell does not invalidate it for all the other subjects in the same area or group).

Check out from the corebook e.g. Light Shaft of the Night (ReIg 20 -- if a moonbeam moves out of the "group", it does not break the spell for every other moonbeam), Summoning the Distant Image (InIm25 -- if someone moves out of the Room, the spell does not break for every other target in the room), Poisoning the Will (PeMe65 -- those who move out of the boundary have the curse broken on them, not on everyone else), The Shrouded Glen (ReMe 40 -- while not stated explicitly, the spell would be pointless if the first person leaving the affected area would break it),

I freely admit this is neither an explicit ruling, nor a consistent find. E.g.: Chamber of Invisibility, PeIm 25, if someone in the invisible group moves (thus becoming an ineligible target for the "static invisibility" base effect), the spell is broken for the whole group.

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Thanks Euphemism!

Note that it should be D:Ring, not D:Circle (Circle is a Target), and D:Ring is +2 magnitudes rather than +1 (then again, D:Conc + Maintain the Demanding Spell et cetera). I also think you would need relatively few of these in a covenant -- a day's work, not a whole season.

Finally, 2nd magnitude is ok, though obviously 1st is better (and level 3-4 is better still). 2nd magnitude without fatigue can be achieved e.g. by someone with a magical focus and good but not phenomenal competence (say Te15, Fo12), or a senior specialist without a focus (Te22 Fo17), casting in a reasonably favourable aura either ceremonially or with the benefit of a talisman attunement.
Even 3rd magnitude would be ok, though it's definitely for dedicated specialists: Te20, Fo15, a magical focus, ceremonial casting (Artes Liberales & Philosophiae 3 each, with +2 props), a good aura (say, +4) coupled with decent stamina (+1), booming voice and excessive gestures (+2), a +2 bonus from a talisman attunement ... and that does it.
In fact, I can see the casting of these spells over the course of a day as the type of "gift" a senior magus would provide to a covenant it visits!

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You are welcome. I will see if I can post a few more tomorrow.

I changed it to be correct so that the spell is now more legible and added a comment about the edit so that your post still makes sense.

The reason why I write that you could do it over a few weeks is because I assume that people will do it and take fatigue and will want to avoid taking too much fatigue at a time because it can interfere with ones ability to study.

neither isn't a ring or circle spell, it is group with duration diameter, so it demonstrates nothing regarding the ring/circle parameters

I never claimed it proved anything. However, I did say it provides evidence that the following interpretation is valid, at least for some (most?) spells: if a set of subjects are affected by a spell, and one of the subjects stops being an element of that set (because it leaves the group or area affected), then the spell is not broken for the remaining subjects. In the case of T:Circle, D:Ring, that would imply that any subject leaving the Ring would not break the spell for those subjects remaining inside the Ring.

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Dear ezzelino, the difference between a rim and a lip is just the shape. They are both the edge around that entry point of yours (so to speak).

I thought of an odd example: Klein bottles. They don't have rims nor lips, but they have outermost circles.

The ideal recipient for this is a pretty much spherical amphora, using an orthodrome (I also know weird words!) as the ring/circle.

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As I pointed out, not as I understand it. The rim is the "outermost edge" according to all definitions I have seen. In fact, you can talk about the rim of a wheel, or of a lens (I believe I've heard it applied to a pizza too). So, yes, a maximal circle on a sphere would qualify as a rim, particularly if (its plane is) orthogonal to some "preferred axis of reference".

But ultimately, let me state again that we might disagree on the meaning of the word "rim" in English, but we do agree on where the circle has to be drawn on the amphora according to Hermetic magic theory. That's really all that matters.

EDIT: I suddenly realized that the nickname Ouroboros definitely suggests extreme qualification on the subject :smiley:

The rim of a bottle is its mouth. Wheels and lenses are flat, so the outermost edge works for them thought.

The difference being that circle is defined as stopping when something leaves the circle, while group does not- if a part of the group leaves the group during the duration both the group and the now separate element are still affected by the continuing spell. Same with room and every other target that isn't circle.

Where do you get this from?

Here is the description for "Target:Circle" (ArM p. 112) and nowhere is it stated that the spell is broken if something that is targeted leaves the circle.

The spell affects everything within a ring drawn by the magus at the time of casting, and ends if the circle is broken, even if that is before the duration of the spell expires. The spell also ends when its duration ends. See β€œRing,” above, for restrictions on drawing the circle. One circle may serve to underwrite both Ring duration and Circle target.

As for Duration:Ring (also ArM p. 112)

The spell lasts until the target of the spell moves outside a ring drawn at the time of
casting, or until the ring is physically broken.

Here I think you have more of a case but I am not sure I support your interpretation. If you look at a spell like a ward against bodies by your interpretation such a ward is broken once someone that it would normally ward against (i.e. target) manages to cross it. Such that if there is a warding circle against bodies cast forcelessly and a magus comes along and steps over the ward then the spell is broken. I would not support such an interpretation and I dont think the canon text is clearly in favor of it either, though I would not say that it is clearly against it either. It really comes down to how you define a target.

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Only if the snake is twisted! (...which anyway I like to think I am).

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The Healing circle
Level CrCo 5
Range: Touch, Duration: Ring, Target: ind
base 1 +1 touch +2 Ring, +1 ind.

This Spell creates a circle that grants a +1 bonus to recovery rolls to anyone inside the circle.

How much is this worth in savings? In savings this is not worth all that much. But the utility of slightly improved recovery makes it worth having. By adding an extra magnitude to the level of the spell the bonus increases to +3 which is significantly more useful. The primary benefit here is not monetary per se, however the message that casting the spell sends to covenfolk might very well be useful in maintaining loyalty as the covenfolk can see that magic is being used for their direct benefit.
If you prefer to use maintain the demanding spell then the following variation might prove useful:

The Healing concentration
Level CrCo 5
Range: Touch, Duration: Conc, Target: ind
base 1 +1 touch +1 Conc, +1 ind.

Grants +3 bonus to recovery rolls as long as you concentrate.

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