Non gifted persons/things and magic theory

Inorder to reduce confusion/exploits the wording on one of the following should be modified in a future printings...

Otherwise (since there is nothing about testing for the gift that I can recall) you could claim anyone who has a supernatural virtue (since they are obviously different and "gifted"), start training them as an apprentice and get a lab assistant. (essentially creating as many grogs with the Failed Apprentice virtue as you like)

Yes but it takes time to train somone so let us say you take Maggi the kitchen hand whit a few visions now and then and train her in magic teory and basicaly, well train her as an apprentice for several years, sure you will have a nifty asistant but you have used alot of time on it. I dont think this loophole is a problem, considering the time involved.

Your covenant hires a latin instructer to teach your new assistants latin for a year. Then you sit them down in front of a magic theory texts and have them spend a yea of more studying. During this period every week the group of them come to two of the magi for one hour each when the magi test them strenuously on their progress with appropriate rewards and punishments for their failures. After two years of study you have a group of lab assistants for the covenant and no one lost even a single season.

I do believe that it is a loophole.

Most covenata I have played in dont have tat type of resoures to rent in pepole to teatch a group of lab asistans, nor to buy alot of books. In adition you still need to find pepole inteligent enough, that will be willing not not only work for mages, but actualy help them doing magic.

But if a group of magi really want to acquire wealth and books they have the ability to make it happen. They are wizards after all. While your characters might not be able to do this now, in ten years of game time it has been my experience that nearly any set of magi characters will be living as comfortably as prudence allows.

Sometimes subjects come up for discussion repeatedly.

Here's the last one on the necessity of the Gift for helpers in the lab:
https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/q-failed-apprentice/435/1

Kind regards,

Berengar

Thank you for the link.

My opinion is however that if a mage is willing to spend that mutch resorces on getting themself an Igor, let them or one mage can only have one helpers as far as I know.

I agree.

Oh, those lab helpers who know all the large and little secrets of their masters ... :smiling_imp:

Kind regards,

Berengar

One reason why magi might not have non-gifted lab assistants is because those assistants are typically either their apprentice or full members of the Order. Both are granted special status by the Code. Outside of House Bonisagus, one cannot just come knock at your sanctum's door and take your apprentice. But otherwise mundane lab assistants are not protected by the Code, except, maybe, by the "diminish one's magical power" clause.

This means that if your assistant one day decides to leave you, you have no recourse against it, even if he decides to go work for another magus. You might bring charges against the magus, but unless he actually influenced your assistant, you're probably out of luck. A very different case from apprentice-snatching.

Then, from a purely mechanical point of view, there is the question of who is allowed to learn Magic Theory at character creation. It takes a virtue like Failed Apprentice to allow it. Again, who else would bother learning it? I see it as a justification for having MT, rather than a requirement to be able to use it at all.

Serf's Parma: In RoP:The Divine, can someone without True Faith assist someone with Ceremonies at all?

After character creation... well you need to persuade your assistant to go ahead and learn something that he'll never be able to use on his own (here's a story for you: your assistant leaves you and joins up with a mystery in the hope of acquiring The Gift).

Now, if you want to rule out completely ungifted people from being assistants, you can limit it to people with a supernatural ability, as was mentioned in that other thread. You can be even more strict and limit it to those which have an associated ability score.

But I think that if a character has, let's say Arcane Lore or Student of Magic, then, you have potential assistant material, gifted or not. They just can't start with Magic Theory.

Finally, you can simply decide that lab assistants must be companion-level characters, thus preventing covenants to just run all their servants through "Introduction to Magic Theory".

As usual, Your Saga May Vary. I choose to disregard the "and has the Gift" provision.

Creo Ignem is a good cure against running away lab helpers that know to mutch and that is not protected by the code.

Of course. Though it'll make that much harder to recruit, and keep, any more helpers. At least without heavy Mentem magics. :unamused:

I'll just give 'em a necklace... it's really to prevent the traps in my Sancta from going off on 'em, 'course, it also does a slight case of CrMe(Re) to instill loyalty or somesuch, or just nukes the bloke if he tries to double cross me. Yes?

Friendly theese mages, and the Order wonder why they have problems getting mundanes to work for them. :astonished:

Of course , The Order being so poor ,
one has to imprison lab assistants rather than paying them. :unamused:

It's almost as if they have the gift to antagonize people. :stuck_out_tongue:

It's not that my Magus is poor, in fact he's rather wealthy. He imprisons his apprentices because he's a Tytalus! Imprisonment builds character!

Duh! :smiling_imp:

Oh and Fruny,

Welcome to the Master's Club.

Your Master's Cloak and broomstick are in the mail.

Why is that always the excuse. :stuck_out_tongue:
My character acts like a scumbag because he is a Tytalus. :unamused:

Tuura I hope Tobias did not inprison Lisel or that demonic little kid would make a hell of trubble.

Ok so the Tytalus, keep a sucsesful Covenant handbook says somthing like this:

Have your kitchen workers beat the dogs, have the soildiers beat the kitchen workers, have the lab asistants best the soildiers, have your apprentice beat the lab asistants and you can beat the apprentice.

And if anyone try to beat your familiar, they die.

Everybody is happy. :slight_smile:

Hello

I liked the idea of warping assistants so that they a aligned with the realm of magic in order to give them an ability to work in the lab. However I do not believe that it would be that hard to recruit a potential lab assistant. If your magus has the blatant gift, then it would be hard but not otherwise, it just takes some adjustment. In order to get lab assistants you probably should start a school for intelligent youngsters and train and warp them as kids. Or you could convince an adult.

Why would anyone work for a magus in the lab. If they can get over the religious worries about their soul you could simply offer them a better life then what’s possible for most mundane people. If you use the covenant rules for wealth management treat the lab assistant as a specialist an perhaps give him a double salary a increased living standard. That would give most people an incitement to stay, they a provide a good life for their family. Also remember that your lab assistants get free time every time you spends a season reading a book or otherwise not working in the lab. If you are concerned about your assistants loyalty, make him swear an oath of X number of year of service in the exchange for good material benefits. If he breaks his oath there should be a punishment involved.

Thanks for the thoughts

/Max