Ignoring mundane actions makes spells that move arrows and blades much more useless. Also the conditions under which a magus can Use Wizard's Leap or any spell to move your body elsewhere situational. I think it is much more effective to manage it as defensive only or try and go out in a blaze of glory. I do resolve all actions for the round simultaneously. Everyone gets an action. I use initiative to set the order and manage the round. Initiative is also used to determine whether fast cast spells can be successfully cast.
Hi,
Momentary spells of this kind become more useless. A diameter spell or concentration or sun is still useful. And yes, a reactive teleport becomes unviable.
Really dealing with the problem, I think, requires changing the initiative system. Something like ticks as in feng shui or as an aces and eights would do the truck.
Anyway,
Ken
I think you guys are getting too complicated. Just Fast Cast as you please. In any given round, the TN is the best initiative roll going. If two magi wanna fast cast against each other, it is a contested roll. JL, I really disagree and believe your premise is to artifically limit magi, and your combat resolution philosophy is unrealistic.
But no matter. I am in your game, and now that I know your unspoken comat HR's, I will use this to my advantage 
But really, it seems that a player is getting screwed by (mis)interpreting the rules this way. Instead of making things more complicated and/or heaping further limitations, why not apply a simple solution that facilitates fun and ease of play?
You can have whatever you want. A consensus of the table can overrule me. Whatever advantage you seek though is also realized by your opponents. IMO its a zero sum proposition.
I agree that the ArM5 basic Fast Casting was a poorly integrated hold over from earlier edition.
The authors of LoM apparently felt the same, and rectified the main problem: the lack of symmetry at ArM5 Fast Casting between the interrupting and the interrupted party. (So with LoM "Fast Casting as Interruption" a high Finesse high Qik maga is no longer likely to be interrupted by an average Finesse magus' Fast Casting.) And the authors did so without messing with Initiative stats, rules relating to which were already spread over many books.
Once "Fast Casting as Interruption" is adopted, what's left to manage by the troupe is mainly issues of taste, like when and for which spells Fast Casting is allowed. Only with this settled within the troupe, one can go about defining house rules e. g. about Fast Casting in relaxed situations, or of attack spells affecting multiple targets.
Cheers
No worries ;D
I am just a smarmy smack talker.
The intent of that character is to triumph against strict application of rule. I am harsh on him on purpose, which is why in part I resited adjusting his age & poer (that and mainly cool backstory).
I can apply my interpretations in my game 
I am just saying my view seems the easiest most natural application. I need to look further into LoM though. And, from my experience, my application is more functional and exciting in a TT game with hard dice. PbP is a different animal. Your simualtaneous resolution approach to combat seems strange, but maybe it makes PbP combat easier for you.
I agree, that's probably the easiest solution. I'm happy to drop the Fast Casting mastery, and along with it the Multiple Casting mastery. Neither of these has ever added anything positive to the game, in my experience.
Probably. Having such a vague initiative system shows the narrative roots at the core of Ars Magica, in sharp contrast to newer numerically oriented developments that require spreadsheets to manage, like the system for mundane crafts. It's a weird melange.
I don't mind talking smack, I tend to bend it around and dish it back. But what I said has truth to it. I really don't care what the rule is. I've established it, everyone knows about it. If everyone else doesn't like it, it can be changed.
I thought about this long and hard. I'm not sure if there's a difference between a TT and PbP game, but the idea for Bibracte is that a lot of opponents will be magi. If you can pick off other actors before they act, then so can your opponents. If everyone gets a chance to act because everything is resolved simultaneously, it doesn't matter. Initiative is used to control the pacing of the battle, only, and to determine possible ways to interrupt action, such as delaying a bit to see what the other guy does, or even fast casting spells, as mentioned here. Ultimately, it's how you guys want to tell the story of combat. Does it make perfect sense? Not really, but it makes it relatively easily managed and consistent. I can certainly see the utility of a preemptive system, though.
As I see it, with Serf’s Parma (and Alzheimer) in full mode, thanks:
Fastcasting occurs relative to a normal action. This means that/
- At most, it happens at the same time as the fastest action.
- Offensive fastcasts cast in response to an attack won’t save you against missile ones, although they can assure MAD
X, init 10, casts a BoaF to Y, init 6.
Y fastcasts a wall of stone to block the BoaF (fastcast defense), and succeeds by beating X init of 10.
X wants to PeTe the wall in order for his BoaF not to be stopped. He needs to beat Y's speed above.
Y then casts an IoL at X.
X, trusting his Parma, fastcasts a BoaF in response (fastcast attack to kill each other. It can’t happen before the IoL), and succeeds by beating X init of 6 + penalty for previous fastcast.
If Y wants to do the stone wall defense again, he needs to beat the BoaF speed, + penalty for previous fastcast.
Overall, X faces lower EF than Y. If he is fast enough, even assuming X manages his first fastcast defense, he can both PeTe it and impose a high enough EF on his fastcast attack that Y won't be able to defend against it.
Other exemple:
X has BoaF as a fastcast and a good finesse.
He casts it at Y, thus imposing a much higher EF than if he had cast it normally, at a penalty to his CT (and thus penetration).
At his normal 10 init, he can either cast an utility/defense spell, or another, “normal” BoaF. If X had tried to fastcast above, he is now further penalized to his defense.
=> Overall (although I may be completely wrong or heavily forgetting that I’m houseruling), speed seems good to me
Combat is an ever changing and ever shifting scenario, and fast casting changes the sequence. I can imagine how a fast offense serves as a great defense. Say a wind wizard casts IoL at me. Or he is about to anyway, at normal initiative. The instant I see him flinch I Fast Cast PoF at him, and if all succeeds then he is torched before he gets the chance.
However, the second he sees me flinch, he can switch gestures and FC a BoAF or somesuch, and if all is succesful, I am toast, and the rest of the spell sequence is invalidated.
Now, let us say I wanna make a preemptive attack. The SG rules it is now an action sequence. Roll Initiative. I have the better score. I am paranoid, so I declare that I FC a PoF the very second I spot him or reacting to his inhaling or whatever. I have an itchy trigger finger. Sequence proceeds: he can FC a response, etc.
Now, this can have important story consequences. Say I made a habbit of an itchy trigger.
bambambam
enemies dead
bambambam
ha ha! let God sort them out!
bambambam
oh my God, I just killed my daughter...
I will also assure you that TT is a very different animal. You have to decide what to do right there and then. Player and SG alike. You can stall for a few moments, maybe buy some time while you run to the fridge for a can of pop. You don,t have the luxury of taking a day to think about your action or contemplate over the weekend what your strategy will be.
You have to decide. Roll the dice. React. Decide. Move. Roll. You forgot something, crap! Adapt. Roll dice. Decide.
So it is much different. Rules need to be applied on the fly. Sequencing becomes important. You feel the simulated tension. And magic, fast or slow, can change everything.
With me, FC can only be defensive or be a MAD response. You cannot, using FC, beat the other guy if his initiative is better than yours. You can only respond to what he does. He has acted, and you may have the ability to respond to that. The choice is to respond with something defensive, trust in your already established defensive measures, or go out in a blaze of glory.
You cannot, with fast casting, as defined per RAW make a preemptive attack. You can only make a defensive action, or respond simultaneously.
Also keep in mind there is Obfuscated Casting mastery ability, with which you may not know enough of your opponent to know what his specialties are (failed an OoH Lore check), OR you fail your Awareness check for determining the Form of the magical effect.
So, you're facing off with the Auram specialist, he get's initiative and let's fly The Incantation of Lightning. You can choose to deflect is IoL, trust in your defenses and take your actions normally, or fast cast and take your actions normally. You cannot react fast enough, as fast casting is defined in RAW to be able to fling your PoF and get it to him before he gets is IoL off. The definition of fast casting is "...choos[ing] to cast a Spontaneous spell extremely quickly, as a response to an attack."
Certamen!
You left off part of the sentence. "...as a response to an attack or other surprising event". This could be anything: a cough' a sound' suddenly seing something, the count of 3, etc. Also, the part about FC as defense is at the end of that section. Defene is one type of FC, not the only option. And FC speed is determined for a reason, to see if you are able to interceed or interupt said attack or surprising event. Indeed, woth good rolls for speed I can cast multiple spells. It is unreasonable to presume they are all simualtaneous. They should be resolved in reverse order.
Scenario: I see an ogre chasing a girl about to club her. I FC a PeCo to kill it dead in step, rescuing said maiden.
Scenario: Dinicatio. My opponent casts Dagger of Ice, I defend with a FC PoF. He fast casts another ice dagger and I am not fast enough to counter it. I loose.
Fast casting will only be a response to something (a combat action, surprising events in combat are not coughs or twitches, sorry), only. Your choice as to how to respond. MAD is a perfectly reasonable response. You're not determining a FC speed, per se. You're determining whether or not you can respond to an attack. If you roll a FC success and the intiative point is 10, and you succeed with a 12, you don't act with the FC at intiative point 12, you act at 10.
Scenario: Ogre is chasing a girl, about to club her. He clubs her at intiative point 10, your initiative is 8, you can fast cast a PeCo at 10, but momentum has already carried through and his swing will still hit the maiden. You will have killed the Ogre, but he has maimed or killed the maiden. A fast cast response is a chance to mitigate an act. Your PeCo goes off and takes effect just as the maiden is being bludgeoned. Too bad, so sad.
The way FC should be interpreted, IMO, is that is a response to an act. The act will still likely happen unless the action taken can completely overwhelm the act. Holding the club in midair, in one spot, while the ogre keeps running would be a better choice. Creating a pit immediately in front of the ogre, that causes him to trip and fall or not be able to actually complete his swing is another idea. Killing him at the point he completes his swing isn't going to be successful. The idea is to make this a defensive thing, in the spirit of what is within the rules. I will almost always favor solutions that try and use spells creatively to mitigate the act, rather than attempts to outmaneuver the SG as to which event happens first.
In Dimicatio, the event is pretty well managed. Initiative every round. Winner casts a spell, loser attempts to block it, if he blocks it he casts his offensive spell, winner of initiative attempts to block it. Move to next round. There isn't an opportunity to cast another offensive spell, as a fast cast. Indeed, there's nothing to respond to, and under my philosophy outlined above, it's just an example of mutually assured destruction, which doesn't apply in Dimicatio. The scenario you outline would never happen in my Dimicatio. First, he can't respond to his own spell, that's casting two spells simultaneously. Different rules apply to those situations.
The ogre scenario, the method doesn't matter. You get my point and just tossed in a killer DM zinger for fun.
Fine, I create a pit or Rego to knock him back or fling i away or just outright disintigrate him. Whatever. You did admit that a FC can interrupt the action if used correctly (i.e. in a way that appeases your aesthetics).
That speaks volumes. I'll take 2 pointss thank you
And how do you deal with the middle of the center column on p.83 of ArM5? It specifically allows me to cast multiple FC spells in a combat round.
Finally, I will tell you that in a fight, with your hackles up, any sensory event counts as a sudden action. I am no fighter, but I have been in a few scraps now and again. Your senses are running wild.
Analogy; Try to think of it as a quick draw gunfight in the old west. FC or regular Initiative. PoF is the six-shooter. The guy that shoots fist and hit to kill wins, the opponent dies before he can fire. But if he doesn't outright kill him with that first quick shot, the opponent still gets to shoot back.
Sure, it appeases my aesthetics, it's also consistent with the RAW. A response to an action or other surprising event. You can respond in such a way that doesn't mitigate the action. That's valid. It's up to the player to stop whatever bad action. If you ask me, as SG, if I do X, will it mitigate the action, and I don't think it will, I'll tell you. I'll give players a couple of these opportunities. Take whatever points you think you need. The whole idea is that we don't get into open ended debates about things like this as they are happening in combat. I'm going to be conservative in applying the rules, generally. RAW states, response to an attack or surprising action. It doesn't say that the response the spellcaster chooses will automatically mitigate the action intended to be avoided. If the ogre is hitting the maiden at initiative point 10 and your PeCo to kill him is a response at initiative point 10, it makes sense that as a response, the PeCo would follow the impact of the club on the maiden. It's in mid swing if he dies at that point, I might, if I'm feeling generous give a chance that the club doesn't impact. But I'm going to favor a more...inspiring use of magic over a simple PeCo, kill it. That's not an interesting story. It's much more interesting that you kill the Ogre as the maiden is killed...
The middle of the second column is easy, responding to different actions, by other combatants. Since I keep initiative small and don't use the group rules, everyone gets an action, everyone acts at a different time it is certainly possible for a fast magus to be able to cast multiple spells in a round. As I said above, i have a magus in another saga who could act at multiple intiative points, on average, in a round. And since encumbrance is involved can make initiative turn into negative numbers, at 5 years PG he can act at initiative points, on average, as long as others are acting at those points, doing things that can be responded to.
Sure, and people ignore stuff in combat and get cold-cocked. Seen that happen in a fight or two, too.
Again, this is a pick one method and go with it. Most of what you say is reasonable. I'm trying to stick close to the RAW, as a response to the attack. I don't want to get into this open ended thing where, ok, I'm going to fast cast and try and do X before he does Y, so he can't do Y at all. That's not interesting to me, and eventually it will escalate into a game of mouse trap. Do you want to play mouse trap?
I like players to be passionate about their views, if you feel strongly and convince everyone at the table I'm wrong, I can be swayed. Doesn't even have to be everyone, most everyone and the others don't care is reasonable consensus. We can hammer out something to your liking.
This isn't about your game or anything. You can handwave all combat and resolve it all by SG fiat. I'll play along if it works.
This is about the game at large, debating ideas for other gamers to consider and brong back to their own games. My ideas, yours, or anyone elses.
And I really do think my interpretation is closer to RAW. But Just saying that doesn't make it so. You invoke RAW and I still think you are wrong. I expect you feel the same about my invocation.
But I am still right
I also do use Group Combat rules. Combined with Fast Casting, I allow a magus that is part of a group to FC a spell and remain in group if his FC speed beats groups IN.
This is very rare though. But group combat in and of itself is RAW. So I will take a ceep 1 point.
Hope you realize I'm just having fun with you
I didn't think it was, but since this something I'd given a fair amount of thought about, and I definitely see how fast casting can be abused. I try and not handwave combat. Then it's just me telling a story rather than having an element of chance.
Sure, and it's why I've kept it going.
I can see how you might think that. I try ant stick to a tight framework, so that everyone knows where things start and stop. Maybe in a TT game you can do multiple interrupted actions trying to out-fastcast each other, but I think that it would ultimately slow things down. Certainly does in a PbP game. Bottom line, I don't think the fast cast rules support acting before your opponent, unless, of course, you won initiative. You have alluded that you want to use the fast cast system to beat the opponent. You're thinking that the fast cast roll becomes a new initiative point at which the spell goes off to intercept the opposing action, but that doesn't make any sense, and isn't stated in the RAW at all. The RAW merely says: "The ease factor for this roll depends on the situation. In combat, the Ease Factor is always the opponent’s Initiative Total." To me, that doesn't mean you act as if that's your initiative point for that round. It doesn't follow that you can cast the or any spell at the finesse based initiative point. To me, fast casting is more like being able to go, oh, he's doing this, I see what he's doing, I can do this quickly enough to intercept his spell/action. No matter how many times you say it do I see the following
Valerian has an initiative of 6
Roberto has an initiative of 5
Valerian is casting a spell, looks like a Rego Terram spell. You want to try and get off your PoF, which you have mastered for fast casting, and you roll a total of 11 on your Quickness + Finesse check. That doesn't say you now act at initiative point 11, it means you can successfully respond to his ReTe spell in some manner, at initiative 6. You can also get your other, already stated action off at initiative point 5. I handwave that in situations where it's close like this. Also going on in that combat, Roberto's grogs have intiative at 9, and Roberto sees Valerian hold them all still (in their metal armor) and they are prevented from engaging or advancing on him. Further, he may also be able to make his finesse roll against Roberto's action and act on that. With a minus 6 to his finesse check, he can probably do a 5. These numbers used aren't based on anything firm.
I wouldn't require the magus to beat his group, only the incoming action. He can still act with his group. But if he's slinging spells, he's probably more of a distraction than anything.
Nope (I used the spoiler tag here, but then I realized you read on your phone more than a computer. So...
Putting a magus in a combat group is hard to do. The Gift bugs them out unless they share Parma with the magus or he has the Gentle Gift. Also, spellcasting negates any contribution made to the group. That's why I would say he needs to fast cast, squeeze the spell of quick so he can keep fighting that round. It is usually better for a magus to be seperate from the group though, having grogs defend him while he casts spells or have him fight solo.