Well, to continue that analogy, Hermetic magic itself would be MMA; development of the most useful magical practice possible, without ideological commitment to anything else.
You didn't even look up the Lucretius, then - and hence couldn't understand my argument. De rerum natura, beginning with an invocation of Venus, is a very famous Latin poem explaining the Epicurean philosophy. And part of that philosophy, also explained in the poem, is the futility of invoking the gods.
Here are two very simple examples, for which you don't need to know Latin or classical literature:
- A Hermetic magus calls a metal mercury in Magic Theory and in his spells, as we do in everyday life. A Holy magus knows, that mercury is a pagan god, and in his magic will use another word instead, like quicksilver.
- A Hermetic magus calls a planet mercury in Magic Theory and in his spells, as we do in everyday life. A Holy magus knows, that mercury is a pagan god, and for his magic needs to ... invent another name for the planet.
So Hermeticism in Magic Theory isn't needed to explain, why a Holy magus modifies his spells and terminology.
Cheers
That would certainly be a serious mistake in any RPG, and is a very serious accusation of ArM5. I am not aware of any particular guilt of ArM5 in this respect, though.
Perhaps David Chart's last contribution From the Editor in subrosa #16 helps to sort out your accusation?
Cheers
Last time this issue was raised in resulted in multiple pages of personal attacks on the person raising the issue, followed by the thread being closed with Atlas making the statement that factually Ars Magica does exactly that to a degree. I suggest we not repeat that.
How is Lucretius relevant to medieval magicians? The man wrote in Republican Rome and his work was so forgotten and irrelevant during the middle ages that it was presumed lost until early humanists stumbled upon a copy of his text during the Renaissance. Even if one presumes that the Founders similarly found a copy, De rerum natura is not at all magically oriented and seems a very odd choice for the philosophy of wizards.
But it is an awfully good explanation of why the magic is called "Hermetic Magic" and the society called "The Order of Hermes". If the order simply descended from Roman "Mercurians", why not call it "Mercurian Magic"? Greek was virtually unknown in the Latin West in the 8th century after all. Besides, adopting the name of a pagan god was hardly a politic move at that time, so one presumes there was an ideological motive. Hermeticism explains the situation better than anything else I can think of.
In Mythic Europe the "Cult of Mercury" is a known product/feature of the Roman Empire (known amongst the right kind of scholar, anyway). So, Bonisagus wouldn't want to call his new magic "Mercurian" precisely because of that: Greece is a long-dead civilisation, that was not militarily active in the west, while Rome has "recently" dominated the entire world.
Ostensibly acting like you are reviving the cult of military magicians that powered the Roman Empire, doesn't look politically smart when many of the traditions you are trying to recruit/assimilate derive from druidic/Germanic cults that fought against Rome.
Lucretius is a good, easily verifiable example of a writer, who uses an invocation of a pagan god for literary and conventional reasons, without himself adhering to pagan religion. It thereby also defeats attempts to conclude, that a Hermetic magus, because he uses 'pagan idolatry' (see catnip & garlic) in a spell or book, would have to adhere to a specific religion.
I addressed that already in https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/the-break-room/102/1 . There is no use in speculating about author's intentions, once these are written out clearly.
In ArM5 Hermetic magic is - see HoH:TL p.5 - based on the traditions of the Cult of Mercury, and no mention of Hermeticism is made in this context.
Cheers
So according to this version of the story the use of "Hermes" is just thinly-veiled concealment of "Mercurian" origins, which went over the heads of the wild Germans while the Latins could give each other nod-nod-wink-winks, knowing that the Romans associated Hermes and Mercury?
One could certainly postulate this. I prefer an alternative where Hermetic Magic has some relation to the actual occult tradition also using the name of Hermes. Otherwise one has to explain the existence of the Hermetic Corpus as purely coincidental. It's really stretching it to suggest that a real world tradition which has inspired occultists for centuries and the centerpiece order of magicians in Mythic Europe have a name in common but nothing else. Why would this make the setting better?
I agree with this. I didn't see what you were getting at but certainly practitioners of Hermeticism in the Renaissance considered themselves to be good Christians.
There's nothing in HoH:TL that precludes Hermeticism and your post is citing the 2e book which does in fact bring Hermeticism into the picture.
Historically, there was no connection made between Mercury or a "Cult of Mercury" and magic in the Roman Empire. To my mind, it's a much better fit for the setting to suggest that the Ars Magica "Cult of Mercury" was a manifestation of ongoing Hermetic traditions than to invent a magical "Mercurian Order" with no connections to real tradition or history.
I thought most magi would be whatever religion sponsored the stories most enjoyed by the troupe whose game they showed up in. 
More seriously, most magi would probably practice either an eclectic version of their original religion, or their master's, depending on how old they were when they were taken. Very few magi truly focus on the Divine, and most of those become Holy Magi, who are mostly shunned by the larger Order.
Hermeticism is a possible tradition for a Hermetic magus. It is just not the Religion of Magi in Mythic Europe.
By ArM2 pg. 28 this evidence was unearthed by Seekers - i. e. magi who well after the founding of the Order of Hermes investigated the past. This shows how to integrate Hermeticism into an ArM campaign. But given the secrecy of most Seekers (see e. g. HoH:TL p.15), their findings are not widely known.
ArM's "Cult of Mercury" is not historical at all.
In the published setting, Bonisagus' theory is built on the "Cult of Mercury". Older traditions, on which this cult was based, were either not yet known by Bonisagus, or he did not acknowledge them in his work. It is only the Seekers, who later start to unearth some of these ancient secrets of magic.
Changing this in a campaign is possible - but requires quite some rebuild of the ArM5 Order.
Cheers
I've been trying to explain that Hermeticism is not regarded as a religion by its adherents, post Late-Antiquity at least. In my view, it's an occult philosophy embedded in the writings of Bonisgaus and others that provides a common understanding of the universe among Magi. It would certainly influence the religious beliefs of Magi, depending on how seriously an individual Magus took the Hermetic philosophy, but it would not necessarily drive one to abandon Christianity, Islam, or any other religion.
Nothing in particular has ever been published describing the Cult of Mercury, so there's no basis for insisting that they were not fully aware practitioners of Hermetic tradition. The alternative is that they followed a completely made up tradition, since we both agree there's no historical model for this Cult.
If we're speaking of canon, Bonisagus is known to have travelled widely in search of magical and occult texts and traditions. It would be surprising if his accumulation of wisdom did not include contact with the Hermetic Corpus.
I'm curious as to what you think would need to change. I don't see any issues offhand.
So we are both now over the OP's claim of Hermeticism as the Religion of Magi - and can discuss it in another context. As a "common understanding of the universe among Magi", it would have to influence e. g. Houses Bjornaer, Merinita, Ex Miscellanea and Tremere. How much influence could this be, then?
You got it: the Cult of Mercury is completely made up in ArM5. It has no historical basis. In history there never was a cult of magic around roman roads (F&F p.26f), or Latin magi communicating by correspondence to jointly cast magic rituals giving power to their group (ArM5 p.9). And the historical collegia of Roman priests (see de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6mis ... erschaften - no English wiki entry available) had nothing to do with the ArM5 Cult of Mercury.
By ArM5 canon (HoH:TS p.15) the Seekers discover The Legend of the Old Ones (in the way outlined already in ArM2 Houses of Hermes p. 30f). So Bonisagus cannot have communicated it already. In this context the question is secondary, whether he made contact with the Hermetika or not.
Do you propose, that Hermeticism is only the Magic Theory of Techniques and Forms, spells, items, familiars and labs? Then Hermeticism is completely irrelevant for ArM5 - and of course no change is required to introduce it. But even a generally accepted unifying philosophy beyond Magic Theory and the Code of Hermes does not fit with the Order as described in ArM5.
Cheers
There's also Fenecil's research into the past in 5e and his conclusions, as mentioned in HoH:TL, page 39.
It's not a concealment --- the point is that the "wild Germans" know the association too. By calling his magic "Hermetic" Bonisagus is saying it has its origins in an older, less imperialistic tradition than the Cult of Mercury. Bonisagus is saying that his magic goes back to the true source; the Cult of Mercury was a Roman corruption, he is deliberately distancing his magic from that.
I can't be "over" that since I never advocated it in the first place. For that matter, the OP appeared to be suggesting Hermeticism, not "claiming" it. You might wish to be more careful not to put words in the mouths of other people.
I do not see Hermeticism as a Religion of Magi. I am interested in how Magi relate to religion, particularly in terms of how their experiences with magic affect that. In this sense, I suspect Hermeticism would lead to decidedly non-Orthodox forms of belief, within the broad structures of Christianity and other religions. This follows the pattern of people in the real world who believed themselves to possess occult insights into the universe. It makes much more sense to me than that Magi would blindly follow the teachings of the Church, or that they would ignore religion and act like 21st century scientists.
The view that the Order of Hermes is itself the most out of place feature in Mythic Europe, now that 5e has elaborated historical and legendary detail beyond anything in previous editions, is widely held on here and I certainly share that view. A magical society with no common philosophical belief structure, no real or imagined occult insights, and no relationship between their magic and their religious belief feels not only anachronistic but artificial. In a time when mundane craft guilds professed mystical secrets, an Order which rejects such secrets and casts world altering magics based on completely empirical principles feels badly out of place.
Exploring the ideology and philosophy of Magi fits the pattern of gradually deepening the detail and richness of Mythic Europe. You certainly may disagree but I do not see any particular conflicts with the published history or structure of the Order.
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That makes sense to me and is also consistent with my suggestion, reflecting the old 2e information, that the Cult of Mercury had even older sources and that Bonisagus was aware of those sources.
The older sources information is in 5e, too, as part of Fenecil's research.
Yes, although whether that is actually true or not, and if it is how important these older sources actually are, is a different set of questions. The truth of it doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be IMO, answered in the RAW canon --- but could be a question that PC magi seek to answer (if that sort of thing concerns them).