OOC: Building the Tribunal Field

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: In the Ruins of Bibracte
78

Int 3 + Stone 3 +1 specialty + 1 dwarf = 8+die
Int 3 + Architect 2 + (1 dwarf?) = 5/6+die
Per 0 + Finesse 4? + 1 specialty = 5

POSSIBLE NEW RULE: "library research bonus" for spending several seasons seeking additional info on Roman Architecture (see "Other People's Vis" thread, on going), from Covenants 98: in this case, +2 "for a Summer Covenant with no particular interest in the matter" or higher, based on how successful she is at acquiring viable research material.

POSSIBLE NEW RULE: Since this sort of Rego Craft effort represents an ongoing effort to work at and refine her project, (as quoted from above, This assumes he does one roll, which is the average of all the rolls he would have made.), then really what we're talking about is applying principles while studying them. So what about allowing a seasons's worth of work to be done in a season as a 7-day distraction from studying, provided that the subject studied is relevant to the craft project (Finesse, Craft, or Architecture)? Possibly even limit it to non-arcane skills.

And before anybody dismisses this as an effort to further pointscum for Finesse levels, I just checked the math, and using the available study materials and seasons, this would only raise me from 4 to 5 -- after I've already built everything for the Tribunal.

Locations
Basic City Grid - the streets, rough building placement, walls, gates
Using well documented city layouts, an extremely simple wall design, with the bulk of the work done by the magically enhanced quarry team, this would be Simple (EF 3) to do, and would constitute a month's worth of work, which she'll try to do in an instant (EF 3 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 = EF 9). The big trick here is that she may have to do this earlier than the rest of her efforts, with a lower Finesse score, so her quarrymen have guidelines to work with.

Roman Villa
Roman Style Baths

  • City and Guild say that a Carpenter could create 2 townhouses in a season. This is also her first real test of her Rego Crafting skills, so I'd say that she comes out and does a day's worth of effort in an instant every day for a season to make both of these. So it's Base EF __ + Rego Craft 3 = (Int 3 + Finesse __ + safe die roll estimate 3-ish).

Coliseum - that seats 200-300, with loading ramps

  • This one is tricky, because I've been directing excavation efforts to create the rough structure of the building starting in 1224.1 (it's partially or completely underground), so the rough shape of it gets done by the quarry team under supervision over several years, with the nobbly bits done by her at the end, the Hermetic equivalent of sanding off all the sharp edges.

Call it an Average Task (EF 9), with a year's worth of work by her, which she'll try to do using both the quarrymen team and her magic in a season. If she manages to find the research material (above), then she may try to get one degree fancier. EF 9/12 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 + (Possible Research Bonus 3) = 15

Expecting to have to throw some Confidence points at this. Again, it might be interesting to then limit her study efforts to include relevant topics (can only do this if studying Architecture or Finesse, for example).

Building for Arts and Exhibitions
Actually, I think for RP purposes, we'll say that she cheats on this and will cast two Baroque Peasant Huts with modified designs, and then Rego Craft a month's worth of simple additions in an instant (EF 3 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 = 9), because it's a really basic Parthenon style structure. She'll do this in an effort to gain more time to finish "perfecting" the Coliseum.

79

Rego crafting is perception + finesse. Creo Crafting is int+finesse.

You're constructing something and whatever follows must rely on previous work, you must understand how all the pieces fit together in a coherent logical fashion. With Creo crafting, you're reaching into the Realm of Magic and having it create the finished project, without you having to know the intimate details of how it was made.

80

Corrected above. That drops me down about one Ease Factor level.

Once we decide on whether or not the times and other numbers look acceptable, and how we feel about the other rule suggestions I made, then I can go back and adjust how long it'll take to do all of this.

81

What are you guys trying to do eaxtly? Using magic to build a tribunal field obviously. You guys are hosting tribunal? What are you trying to build, a temporary or permenant structure(s)? What sort of features are you creating?

82

Yes. Mons Electi won the opportunity to host the 1227 Normandy Tribunal and Tourney!

83

We're trying to create a set of rules for Rego Crafting that allow a magus to spend more than just an instant to create something, in an effort to make all the really high target numbers more accessible, even if we still can't do them instantaneously. For example, there are no rules to say how I could use Rego magic to achieve something in a season.

To that end, we have the draft rules proposed above, to create the tribunal field, which we're modeling after traditional Roman city construction plans. Here's the overall plan:

Partially subterannean Coliseum - that seats 200-300, has loading ramps - PERMANENT

  • Falconball court (our home brew contest for this tribunal)
  • joust / list field

  • Tournament field

  • Main Tribunal Hall

  • fighting pit
  1. Roman Villas x15 - Moon Duration. 1 Permanent.
  • 9-13 Normandy Covenants

  • other Covenants 2-6
  1. Roman Style Baths -PERMANENT (still need an Ignem expert to enchant/ensorcel this)
  2. Small vendor Booths - Merchants responsibility
  3. Building for Arts and Exhibitions - Moon Duration
  4. Residence Hall for 30 x 3 - Moon Duration
  5. Walls surrounding the whole thing, now that we don't trust the Guernicus

This is on a mountain adjacent to ours in the vast Rego-aligned regio, and we're building magically unnatural bridges to it as well.The Bathhouse, "Administration Villa," and Collesium are all permanent structures. Additionally, I'm creating another spell to build moon-duration villas

Note that we are still seeking player input on whether the texts I want to find for some of these spells and enchantments are going to be available, or if I have to make them from scratch, so I'd appreciate it if you took some time and replied to that.

84

Not quite sure what the question is, here. If it's "does the troupe believe that lab texts for these spells are available in the Order?", then as far as I can tell, I don't see why not.

The next question would be "How available are they, and how much will it cost us to get them?", then that would be a SG call.

85

This is the true Meaning of Ars Magica
:slight_smile:
The "Thoughtline" as it were.
Magic with Meaning.
You have all this magic at your disposal as players, and what do you decide to do with it? Build a lasting monument, win social prestige, invent a new sport. All things that have the weight of meaning imbued by the rules & setting and your emotional investment in the game.
Gaming...
Brings a tear to my eye blink
...

So anyway, why don, you get together as a team in the Lab and invent a super high level ritual with extra craft magnitudes? One big one for the whole thing. Though seperate spells may be easier, and the "similar spell" bonus for the lab helps out.
How long do you have? How much vis is available? Are you trying to use Rego craft magic? that,s the hard way, but cheeper vis wise.

86

I'm basically spending all of 1223-1227.2 learning what I need to do it and casting the spells.

We're using a combination of CrTe rituals, enchantments and RegoCrafting.

Why would I want to spend years designing a spell and only casting it once? The point is to build a set of tools which are reusable.

87

I'm not sure I like this, for a simple reason: Even going at the same pace, I want rego craft to be worse than mundane craft (all other things being equal) or Creo Magic.
This also poses problems: It works fine for year-long projects, but what for something that would take a month?

No. No way.

This assumes that you are taking the time, working all day on the project. Casting hundreds of spells, checking your work, drawing plans...
You want to do a season's work in a season? That means you're working at a mundane craftsman's pace, mostly. Crafting each brick one by one with magic, putting it above other bricks one by one... Failing at times, too, and correcting your work.

You can't have the butter and the butter's money. Either you take the time, or you go for a higher EF. If a season's work is too much for you, do it faster.
Or else, one should allow, say, grogs to count their full-time guard duty as a 7-days distraction from their studies of, say, Awareness. Or Covenant Lore, if checking every entry.

Note that, anyway, if you're going to spend a year on Rego Crafting a project, it might be better to just spend 2 seasons to create a Creo ritual that would do it. I see the Rego way, here, as mostly useful for those covenants that are vis-poor.

88

On reflection, I agree that it is cheesy. I suppose I might make a more valid argument using the rules for Practice xp, but I'm fine with being limited to exposure xp.

Yes, given that the project, including time spent doing Alchemy while in the lab, is currently running at a vis profit, and Mons Electi has a greater income then every other forum game I've played here combined, I agree with you. Might just be easier to learn the appropriate CrTe ritual and cast a bunch of them. It would certainly be the way my character was designed to do it. Will probably end up doing both.

89

Y'know, I was just thinkin'...
With the time you had (do you have any left?), you could have hired a team of stonemasons to do the bulk of the work. Magic could be used to perfect their work or make their job easier so they can do better work faster.
Or are you already doing that?
Creo or Rego a bunch of lego-like stones as light as styrofoam, slap-slap it together, let it turn back to heavy stone, polish it up, and there you go!

90

I have all of 1223-1227.2 to fiddle with my plans, with the tiny hiccup that in 1223.1, I let a magus claiming to be my vulgar grandfather trap me in a regio. Nothing is set in stone.

As things currently stand, in 1224.1 (ie, Spring), I have a team of 4 work on quarrying and building the site, using greater invested rings designed from those lab texts I mentioned before. Specifically:

Stone Cutter (ReTe15, as book)
Enchanted Porter (ReTe15, as book)
Shape The Supporting Pillar (ReTe 3 +1 Stone, +1 Touch, +5 50 uses/day = ReTe10)

So each ring will be able to cut a piece of dressed stone straight out of the quarry, and then be arranged like legos. Plus the spell to one of those piece of dressed stone into a support beam to keep the excavation site from collapsing on them.

So, once the lab texts are approved, the seasonal efforts confirmed, and after I managed to escape from the regio in 1223.1....it becomes a question of figuring out how much of the work they can get done on their own, versus how much I need to do. Right now, we're assuming that they can generate all the stone that I need.

The SG has punted that decision to troupe consensus.

91

By my math, I'm counting 327 total spell levels on that list. Is that right?

I was going to say readily available, for either a 1:1 exchange on lab texts or seasons of service/vis equivalent equal to how long it would take to copy that many (e.g., it would take Fiona three seasons to copy 327 spell levels, and she could extract 3 pawns of vis from the aura in one season, so three seasons would be 9 pawns of vis for 327 spell levels.) But now that I see it in writing, that sounds a little cheap.

92

That's an interesting way to look at pricing. By my math it's around 300+.

15	Stone Cutter (ReTe15)
15	Enchanted Porter (ReTe15)
10	Shape The Supporting Pillar (ReTe 3 +1 Stone, +1 Touch, +5 50 uses/day = ReTe10)
61	 Levels of ReTe (mostly Craft) spells
29	"[i]Foundation Stones for bridges (based on HProj 41, ""Flying Buttress"")"
??	other CrTe building spells
130 total, group 1

20	Lamp Lighters (base 3 +1 touch +2 ring +10 unlimited = CrIg20)
25	Hearth-Starters (base 4 +1 touch +2 ring +10 unlimited = CrIg25)
50	 Levels of MuVi spells, including Wizards Communion 30
15	Furnishing the Empty Room CrHe 15 - possibly covered by Rego Crafting
110 total, group 2

60	Suggested: An Efficient System of Composting, ReCo(An)(He) 60

Your suggestion of 3 pawns assumes that they all come from one location. Suppose we break them up into the groups as above, so that's 3 different people. Perhaps group 1 comes from our Future-Advanced Praxlites, or the spell-slinger who built Mons Electi in the first place[1]. Group 2 from a Flambeau friend. The third from Fiona's librarian friend at Durenmar.

How much would Praxlites charge for the spells that define his work? Or, better yet, how much would he charge to directly teach me those spells (plus, possibly others) for a season? There's a set of rules I never see used.

Maybe the Flambeau thinks of the item texts as mere novelties and the rest of the spells he'll give to me if I spend a season "learning how to fight" with him.

Perhaps the Durenmar Librarian just sends us a copy for free. "I heard you were looking for this. Bring it back when you're done using it."

[1]Wasn't there something in the Prelude about how Apollodorus was keeping the lab text for the spell he used to create ME?

93

Tr@ped in a regio is pretty set in something :wink:
Better figure that one out.

You need a whole team of craftsmen, 20 or more, led by a master mason. You can Creo ritual new stone in rough blocks and they can finish it.
As for the spell texts, I'm new here but I'll vote yes.
:smiley:

94

I am a master mason. And a Terram Specialist. Punk. Who do you think you're talking to?

~duck~

Actually, the more we talk about this, the more I suspect you're right. Rather than spending a gazillion seasons trying to improve her Finesse score when she's not optimized to be a Finesse specialist anyway is time spent away from Rego and Terram books. This is my usual problem with characters -- I always try to generalize too much.

95

For the spells, I'd say yes, save that for the one from Hermetic Projects. This is why he's in Projects, IMO, and you're speficic, also. This is what puts you appart! This is why this'll be Viscaria's Bridge, and not "just another bridge".

And we already have Wizard's Communion 30, so this is unnescessary. Unless you mean 30 + 2 mag for Sun duration?

For the cost, one suggested on the forums that sometimes, a magus best arts should be used. For exemple, a longevity potion specialists with no vim score and a defficiency in Vim might be utter crap at Vis extraction. Still, there's no way he'll charge you only 1-2 pawns of Vis.
However, the lab texts here are pretty standard, so this shouldn't apply. Still, I concurr with Amul that these could (and maybe should) come from different sources.

Mechanics-wise, this is tricky, since you have various people in succession working on the same projects.
Easier thing: Have them work on their own things, at their own pace, do their own building, while viscaria does her own thing.

It also stand to reason that Viscaria would let them do the "little work", and do the important things herself.

Hey! This makes Rego Craft seasonnal activities worthwhiles! Once you've got a bunch of grogs with enough finesse, they can craft anything, given the right items! Even if the result is not as good as an equivalent craftsman's work (due to the +3 penalty), they sure make it up in versatility :smiley:
They can then spend season after seasons crafting whatever we want , possibly faster than mundane craftsmen if the EF is manageable :smiley:

96

Yes and no. I want to get someone else to come up with how expensive these are. I've done it. I want someone to check my work, or perhaps find a more reasonable approach. I don't want to share what I've done, because I don't want to get a that's way too expensive and it doesn't make sense approach. I either made a mistake, or there's a problem with pricing out lab texts and so forth in RAW.

97

Does one pawn of Vis per fifteen spell levels (rounding up) per source sound reasonable?

Wait! Covenant-building!

Let's see. 1 build point per 5 levels of spells, and 1 bp per 5 pawns of vis(in vis stocks). So, transitive property says 1 level of spell equals...one pawn of vis? Holy Moley! And nothing in the errata.

Wow...that is hella expensive, I think.

I think I like my idea a little better.