OOC Chat

I am not sure what you are looking for that I have failed to provide. I have the picture clear in my head, so I need to get what’s in my mind into your mind. How about this: pose a series of ten questions, and I will try to answer each of them from the PoV of each different Persona.

Okay :smiley:

I say it is more like a fifth draft :laughing:
I am able and willing to make any revisions that are needed, but I need to know exactly what these changes are. The background can be rewritten and mutated as needed. No problem there. But as for the character sheet, what specific mechanical changes are needed?

But who knew that Pernoites even had an apprentice? What was his relationship with his covenant like? Did he even have a covenant?
Obviously Hyperion knew, he was waiting for me when I returned. House Tytalus knew too, but to them I was already a magus according to their traditions.
And if I were grabbed during these intervening years, I would not make a good lab assistant at all. Anthony would either slit your throat in your sleep or rig the lab to blow up. Not that the “grabber” would know this, he would have to find out the hard way.
Remember, at this stage of life Polyoppeties is almost a grown man, and as Anthony he is part of a gang of criminals. Setting the search for Peronite’s killer aside for now, the only way a magus would know I was gifted would be because he is casting random InVi “Find Gift” spells on people. Finding a Gentle Gift should be much harder, just as finding a Blatant Gift should be easier, and since it should logically require a specialized higher level spell, it would most likely be a Jerbiton magus casting the random search spells. But whatever his house, unless this guys got some serious spine, he is gonna think twice about gang-pressing me. More than likely he will approach with a subtle offer to teach me magic, not realizing that I already know magic. I ask him to step into my office so we can discuss it, then I slide a knife between his ribs. Puts a serious cramp in a wizard’s style y’know.
Yur view may vary, but I just don’t see it happening. Not randomly at least. The search for Pernoites’ killer is a different matter though…

We have no idea what his master’s covenant was like. Maybe it was an all Tytalus covenant, maybe it was a covenant of only two (and the other guy is senile). I pretty much never left the sanctum, so I have no way of knowing. Magi of House Tytalus won’t come looking for me just yet. They are most likely watching me and waiting to see what I do, but I have no way of knowing that so that information is purposefully omitted. Redcap mail, I dunno. Where was his real mailing address? Pernoites also had many cover identities, he just wasn’t all messed up in the head. What correspondences did the Pernoites identity have? Did he trust Redcaps or did he use other means of sending messages? Polyoppeties doesn’t know, therefore I don’t know. This is will either need to be determined by the SG, or will have to e incorporated into a later story I tell wherein Polyoppeties is finally exposed to the secret inner strings of his House.

Yeah. But Pernoites was a dick, everyone hated him.
But remember, Hyperion was waiting for me when I returned to the sanctum. Perhaps it was he who was watching me the whole time, and knew I was headed there so he went there ahead of me.

As I mentioned, it isn’t House Tytalus that I should be worried about. By their standards, I am just fine and can do whatever I want. They probably were watching me, but I do not want to say that definitively because the character has no way of knowing that.

Polyoppeties is the equivalent of a high school dropout who thinks he is smarter than the experts. But he isn’t. As I said, his House is most likely watching him at this early stage and pulling some strings as the young magus finds his way on his own (hey see him as a valuable future resource, and there is that whole prestige thing). But since the character has no knowledge of this, I don’t want any knowledge of it.

Notice I left a big gaping hole open for you. I should have destroyed the whole lab instead of just burning the notes that pertained to me (I may have even forgotten to mention that, more holes). That means House Tytalus had seven years to look though the lab for any AC’s or lab notes from the early years I didn’t know about or his secret mastermind journal containing my secret name. I am tying myself wholly to the intrigues of my House, inseparably so.

Yes, there are such spells. There were in 4th ed anyway. But I think that it would take a higher level spell to detect the Gentle Gift, requiring a special spell of a higher level and meaning that this person is specifically looking for the Gentle Gift. Now, if I am specifically being sought after, that is one thing. But being plucked out by a random “find gentle gift spell” is unlikely, and I already mentioned my contingency plan for that.

I am not trying to fight you on anything. Just providing point-counterpoint in a very Tytalus fashion.

Yes, but we both know young Polyoppeties sees wrongly and is being naive.
Whatever needs to be in place to make things look kosher; I am humbly asking you to take care of it and keep it secret from me.

Too late! It is in there because you requested it. It has become an essential pillar of the character’s design. It is too late to change it now. With the original Polyoppeties, I didn’t get to develop him to the point where the fourth persona develops. With this version, I am happy with the three, but I want the character to have Quadrophenia, like the album by The Who.

Overconfident needs to be seen in action, it cannot be described. When you see me attempting some crazy stunt that requires spending all my confidence points and even then will only succeed when I roll a “1” followed by a “0”; then you will see the Overconfidence.
I have really done this before!

I don’t see both of these being needed to be nurtured day and night. Sal has his business dealings and will certainly travel from time to time. The kids are grown so I can mostly ignore them. That’s what servants are for. Anthony’s early dealings are mostly at night, and wouldn’t require every single day.
There is a timeframe to keep in mind. For the first few years, Polyoppeties stays hidden (or so he thinks) as Anthony. It is only later that, after he is transferred and made boss of a crew, that he decides to go wandering about exploring the city. He decides it is best to do so disguised, so puts on the Donatella Persona (mind you, Polyoppeties now thinks that she has just discarded a disguise). But anyway, Polyoppeties switches back and forth for awhile, using the new “Grace D’Ambrosio” cover identity when Donatella. At first there is no conflicts on time, posing as Grace is a luxury (points of view: Anthony thinks having a secret social life is a luxury and using the Donatella disguise is a necessity; Donatella thinks that relaxing and just being herself is the luxury, disguising herself as Anthony is a necessity because these mobsters wouldn’t respect a female boss). As for Maurice, maybe he also used that “disguise” for socializing. But it is Donatella that made the lasting connection. She meets Sal; there is a courtship period; (maybe there is a scene where Maurice answers the door, claims to be her brother, runs upstairs to get her and comes downstairs as Donatella); and it is only the last year or two that she is married. Dealing with the dual lives is challenging, but it is manageable. But this is when Polyoppeties realizes that more magical study is needed in order to keep things going. So he returns to the sanctum, and that’s when he gets confronted by Hyperion.

That is when things get difficult, and this is where the character begins his life as a magus. It is over the course of the next seven year development cycle that Polyoppeties will learn how to deal with these challenges.

That scene hasn’t occurred yet. It is planned for the first year of the first seven year development cycle. I have many more, a whole bag of tricks, but these stories will be told one at a time as they happen.

This may pose a problem, as it will encourage me to not be at the covenant most of the time. And why only once a season? The minimum uses per day for an item is 1x/day. What if we made it a flying carpet or something simpler?

They are all RAW vanilla spells straight from the book. If you insist though…

I can add descriptions for the appearance of each persona, no problem.
Tony doesn’t have a sword, he has a knife. They all use the same knife, I just though that up. “Grace, your knife is all bloody, what’s going on?”
Yes, interesting.

Yes and no. You are still missing the point. There is no “they” and no cooperation involved. There is only one single person. That person is confused about who he/she really is, but at all times there is a single ego. For example, Maurice never thinks “Oh, that’s not my fault, Anthony did it”. Maurice knows fully well he did it, it was while disguised as Anthony but he was the one that did it. Why did he do it? Maurice was angry. He was disguised as Anthony when he was angry, and the mook probably deserved what happened to him, but Maurice will think of it as his anger at the time. He doesn’t feel so angry now looking back on it, but it was the heat of the moment probably.
So what you view as “cooperation”, I (Polyoppeties) see it as one single life that has various pieces to it. Polyoppeties realizes he has “mood swings”, but does not (yet) associate certain moods with specific “disguises”.
Polyoppeties is headed for an identity crisis one day, just like in Quadrophenia. But I want this to happen in play, not durning development. I don’t want it to happen right away in play either, let things get rolling a bit first and hit me with it later.

No arguing. That would imply that the Personas are different people. They are not. It is more a matter of having not made up my mind yet. I haven’t come to a decision.
When I am Anthony, I don’t believe my memories of my distant past are real. I think my current memories in my disguises are real, I just don’t believe the murdered family story ever happened. When I am Donatella, I find it to be an amusing coincidence, but I don’t spend time worrying about it. Right now, the current arrangement suits my purpose. I don’t love Sal, I just love his money. To Donatella, this is a sort of revenge, and puts her in the right place to strike when the time is right. Right now it is too soon, if I am going to take down the Cartel I will have to take it down all at once. Hit heavy and hit hard. As Maurice, I am ambitious enough to attempt such a daring escapade, but when I am Maurice I am involved in Hermetic concerns. I put it out of my mind and figure I’ll deal with it when I am in my Anthony disguise. Which puts be back to square one.

Mostly yes. My thinking is that the Anthony Persona emerges in the midst of a mental breakdown. He kills his parens and flees. He stays Anthony for a while, and after a while he becomes comfortable enough to be Donatella once in a while. Donatella develops a life, and eventually feels comfortable enough to become Maurice again. The complicated life slowly developed over the past seven years, it didn’t happen all at once. There was a “recovery” time I guess.
Polyoppeties would never psychoanalyze himself this way, but I can see it as the Anthony Persona coming out to protect the others. The murder of his parens was a traumatic shock, and he needed to stay Anthony for awhile to get over it. Donatella reemerges first because that is the Persona most comfortable in social situations. Maurice finally reemerges when his ambition to grow as a magus develops.

No, no. The house purchasing scene take place in the first seven year development cycle. That and the whole fake family thing develops as my initial solution to the complicated multiple life situation, which as I mentioned, starts getting complicated right after he is declared a magus. Anthony will have to deal with a similar situation as well, also within those first seven years. My solution for this will be a bit sneakier and a bit bloodier.

Correction, “Polyoppeties is probably aware”. There isn’t multiple Polyoppeties-es. Only one singular individual that is confused about who he really is but never realizes or acknowledges this confusion.

I shall right now :smiley:. Who is Eilonwy?

Not “Them”. It is never a Them. There is only one Polyoppeties. If you are ever confused about what pronoun to use, just insert the name. Polyoppeties refers to Polyoppeties in the first person all the time.

I didn’t mean to confuse you. I am trying to play the part of someone who is mentally ill but believes themselves to be totally sane. I can oly explain things from the point of view of the character, and the logic of the insane can indeed be confusing

Maybe it is a point of view thing. I see it as one character, sometimes he thinks this is his original identity, sometimes she thinks her original identity is something else.

You almost have it, but not quite. Donatella knows it is important to look good at the party, probably because of pride. But before the party, Polyoppeties needs to take care of business using a “disguise”.
Example 1: Turning into Maurice (thinking he has just shed a disguise), he remembers that it is important to look good at the party, but is not really sure why. He justifies it with social ambition, and after he finishes his business he picks up that fancy dress (telling the seamstress he is here to pick up his sister’s dress).
Example 2: Turning into Anthony (and thinking he has just shed a disguise), he remembers thinking it is important to look good at the party tonight. He doesn’t remember why, but it is always important to look good. He forgets about the dress because he gets distracted having to put the beat down on a street hustler for holding out on him. He realizes he is late for the party, cleans up really quick, and Donatella has to wear something already in her closet. Donatella is pissed at herself for forgetting the dress. From her PoV, she was the one that got distracted and forgot the dress.

Polyoppeties is not one person at a time with other people sitting in the subconscious. Polyoppeties is always one person. All the identities belong to me, I just wear different faces depending on the name I am using. When I am Maurice, I am still Donatella and Antonio. They didn’t disappear. If you ask me which persona came first (and I decide to be truthful with you), my answer will be whatever persona I am currently in. But I still recognize the other Personas as “me”. If you are a friend privy to my secrets (if there ever comes to be such a person), and you know me as Maurice; I will answer to the name Maurice even if I am Donatella at the moment. I know you are talking to me and that is the name I taught you to call me. I may correct you and ask you to call me Donatella, but I won’t get confused. You may get confused, but I’ll just shake my head and look at you like you are weird.

You really need to listen to the Quadrophenia album. “Can you see the real me?”.
I suppose you will need to see me role-playing each character before you get a full feel for it. Perhaps what you see as hollowness is what I see as part of being mentally ill. Insanity is always difficult for the sane to comprehend. And a lucid intelligent insanity is something scary to confront face to face.

There is a fourth Polyoppeties, but he is not “uber”. The Major Personality Flaw and identity of the fourth Polyoppeties is for you to decide.

This is difficult, because the way I view things, there is no “each” involved. There is only one perspective. It may be “colored” by whichever “glasses” being worn, but it is always the same pair of eyes.

Close. I don’t think the thought “I’ll never get this done disguised as Anthony” would ever cross Polyoppeties’ mind. The part about wrecking the project may happen though. Anthony’s thoughts would be along the lines of “what the hell am I doing this for? This is stupid”. Then later, Maurice may present the mental gymnastics you suggest, to justify why he wrecked the project.
But this is an extreme example. My different “moods” are not as contradictory as you may imagine. For example, the favorite color of Polyoppeties is always blue, Polyoppeties’ favorite food is always beef. The only real difference in “mood” is the Major Personality Flaw. Though this is the dominant aspect of a particular Persona, all of the rest of the aspects are nearly identical. Polyoppeties’ Overconfidence is omnipresent, and no matter what the Persona, Polyoppeties is self assured in his/her/his abilities. The differences, other than the Major Personality Flaw, are mainly situational. Anthony’s greater strength makes him a little braver, Donatella’s pride makes her more discriminating, Maurice is more loyal because he feels closer ties with House Tytalus. Situations can change and all of these minor differences are mutable and/or trasferable to the others.

I am hoping to help you to know Polyoppeties better by trying to get you to see only one version, for that’s all there is. A triangle may have three sides, but there are not three versions of the same subject. There is only one version of Polyoppeties. It is complicated with different parts (more of a square than a triangle), but there is only one complete whole. To know Donatella better is to know she is also Maurice and she is also Anthony. They never “go away”. For example, Anthony is Wrathful, but if you piss him off to a degree that someone without that Flaw would also be mad at you, Polyoppeties will still be mad when in the form of Maurice or Donatella. Maurice is the ambitious but still has a natural drive to succeed when Donatella or Anthony. Donatella is proud, but you can still stroke or offend Polyoppeties’ when in the Anthony or Maurice Persona.
How this all relates to the hidden 4th Persona, I don’t know. But Polyoppeties’ personality will still be mostly the same except for a different Major Personality Flaw.

And I hope you now understand them better still. I will include much of what we discussed here in the revised background.

If you would allow, I prefer to keep it as one single perspective with occasional side comments where the divergences occur.


So shall it be!




I tend to comment as I write, so some earlier stuff in this post is obsoleted by later.

Specifically, toward the beginning I was unsure about things being too easy for Polyoppeties, but as I read I understood that even though he is not aware of it, you are.

That's exactly what I need, a picture that's clear in my mind too. We both need to understand what's going on with Polyoppeties.

As for "ten questions," I think I've been asking about the things that aren't clear to me as I respond, or testing my interpretation to see if I get it. Once I get it, I've got it.

The scary thing is that I can type Polyoppeties without hesitating to get the spelling right! :slight_smile:

lol I don't count the ones prior to this game.

So far, the mechanics are good. I'd like the new spells (the variants) to have full templates, with a page reference to the original.

We're sound on mechanics. What I want to get down, and to me this is more important, is a common understanding of Polyoppeties. I'm closer than I was.

An emergent and deliberate consequence of the game's unique background (which is worth a second look, because it offers a Tytalus intriguing possibilities while making other things more difficult) is that a magus has a hard time hiding certain things. The Order is more gossippy, fueled by efficient Redcaps and portals; the power of Quaesitors to poke their nose into other people's business exists yet is curtailed. Rumor rules, and innuendo is rife. I've even tightened the cycle of Tribunals by a factor of 7. A lone magus is severely disadvantaged; a conspirator or cabalist (small c) wins book. Think Republic of Rome more than Land that Time Forgot; secrecy is relative. The background is worth a second read, to consider the social implications. (There's a deliberate design decision here, encouraging magi to interact rather than hermit it up.)

One of the things that is especially difficult to hide is whether a magus is training an apprentice. There's only one year in 21 when a search is possible; magi in good standing tend to show up with their apprentices at Grand Tribunal.

So it's extremely likely that all sorts of people knew about Pernoites apprentice, from the Redcaps who deliver mail (including a copy of The Book of Instruction :smiley:) and visit the covenant, to other Tytali and covenfolk, to Pernoites' Bonisagus mentor/dupe. And you can bet that if Pernoites wanted to hide Polyoppeties, some other Tytalus made sure that everyone knows. :smiley:/230943872 It's something that's just too hard to hide.

I invite you to remember that there are people in the Order with Puissant Intrigue, Affinity with Intrigue and 100 years of xps.....

....and there are long-standing traditions about how to bring unruly apprentices in line. A competent grabber could find out pretty easily.

As an exercise, think of at least two different ways that a senior, experienced magus could bring Anthony and the whole crew in line, working away as a good apprentice.

I'm fine with his killing his parens, who slipped up. Triple botches happen. I'm not at all fine consistently erring on the side that the magi of the Order are stupid, don't know what they're doing and blunder around.

The issue I'm having with all this is the assumption that everyone is stupid except for Polyoppeties. You know, that the other magus won't have a clue about what he's about, would not have watched him carefully, not have used InMe spells, or ReMe spells, or simple Pre+Charm or Per+Folk Ken.

This is a big problem for me. I don't have a problem with the multiple personalities, or the complexities thereof. I do have a small problem every time the background requires the people around Polyoppeties to be stupid, negligent, blind and inept. Once, fine. Consistently? No go. Especially not after he killed his parens. He is a dangerous character who needs to be watched, and until his Gauntlet, it isn't even a Hermetic crime. And even after his Gauntlet, the little murderer is going to have problems bringing charges of scrying against anyone.

Think about other people. Polyoppeties might not see them as people but as things to be manipulated, but you and I know better.

Yes, exactly. Had he run away and Pernoites allowed it, absolutely nothing would happen. But there's this dead magus lying around. Quaesitori get interested in stuff like that, and murder investigations generally proceed. What, there's this bunch of Tytalus magi who say that the parens got killed by the apprentice? Like anyone believes Tytalus magi! Someone better find the apprentice and run some good InMe on him, right? And then, what will they do with the apprentice? He's not a magus yet, so someone will have to speak for him.

Murder mysteries rarely endure in the face of Hermetic Magi.

And of the Order. I repeat: Are you sure you want Polyoppeties to be so completely ignorant of the people around him, what other magi do, how they are likely to act?

Ok. See above.

Ok. They aren't the only ones with an eye on him. So long as you're ok with this, I'm fine.

I did notice that, actually. :slight_smile:

There's a spell in Hedge Magic that allows finding a Gifted person, based on the lvl10 InVi guideline. I decided to allow it, but detecting the Gentle Gift requires two extra magnitudes.

Yes. I'm trying to reach agreement about the character, so that I'm sure we're both on the same page. Tytalus rivalries can go on for decades. This won't. I will end up accepting your take about most background stuff, but all the stuff that went down so easily in your background might abruptly be difficult in play. If that's what you expect, we're golden.

Humbly, huh? Ok. Done. :smiley:


Fair enough.

That's fine. :slight_smile: Stuff that gets magi out of the lab is Good.

It's not a flying carpet. It is what it is.

:slight_smile: Tony need to learn how to clean his toys.

This is the most important part of our discussion right now, about my getting it.

Maybe the part that keeps me from getting it--and I still don't--is that they don't just have different moods, but different beliefs, and different motivation. We keep coming back to this. It's more than just shifting a personality trait, but a shift in beliefs about the past and about the present and about what matters in life; Tony thinks he's the assassin of the family the other two think they are part of! So while I see that you say "there is a single ego," it doesn't quite look like that from here. So I'm still missing something.

But isn't Maurice aware that when he's in his Anthony disguise, he has no interest in taking revenge and that he doesn't even believe in the family story?

Mostly yes. My thinking is that the Anthony Persona emerges in the midst of a mental breakdown. He kills his parens and flees. He stays Anthony for a while, and after a while he becomes comfortable enough to be Donatella once in a while. Donatella develops a life, and eventually feels comfortable enough to become Maurice again. The complicated life slowly developed over the past seven years, it didn’t happen all at once. There was a “recovery” time I guess.
Polyoppeties would never psychoanalyze himself this way, but I can see it as the Anthony Persona coming out to protect the others. The murder of his parens was a traumatic shock, and he needed to stay Anthony for awhile to get over it. Donatella reemerges first because that is the Persona most comfortable in social situations. Maurice finally reemerges when his ambition to grow as a magus develops.
slow nod I still don't get it; you're trying for something quite complex here. But maybe a glimmer.

Ok. :slight_smile:

So when Polyoppeties is Anthony, he feels confused? You just said he doesn't know. Similar for the others. So they are one singular individual, but with three distinct personalities and beliefs.

Timothy Ferguson ran a PBeM nearly 20 years ago, and allowed magi of any age or seniority. I created a character less than 5 years out of Gauntlet who had a Reputation for being 300 years old, which, in a way, she was, but not really. And she was forced to pretend to be a very, very, very senior maga, with her only real power being her dialog. I had thought she would lay low, but no, from the very beginning, the Tremere elder wanted to take over the covenant and kill her.

I understand now that Polyoppeties is a singular person who incorporates the three personae; I think I get it. They are less faces of a d10 than, say, cards in a single hand. Nevertheless, please do the background three ways, even if a lot repeats. I know that I will find that useful (if only because as GM, I will slant my descriptions toward the persona in charge at the moment), and I suspect that you'll get something out of it too. Think of it as Rashomon meets Quadrophenia, if you like. If you want a fourth 'objective' background, that's good too.




That's a lot of aging rolls for me to make on your behalf, before Gauntlet. I'll do it once the character is complete, but... Are You Sure? Unaging does not protect against Decrepitude or prevent aging crises.


So that I don't do a double-take every time I see it, please use a word other than Sanctum, which has a specific meaning in AM.

Note that these 'followers' are not very loyal yet, and are bound to Elyse only to the extent that she is useful. For this to work as a flaw, there must be a consequence for her to lose these followers. Otherwise, she can decide that she no longer wants the hassle of followers who drain her time and resources, and be left with no Flaw. You don't have to specify those consequences, of course, and just leave that to me....

What is the Path of the Beacon?

I have not yet counted xps. Please make sure that Elyse adheres to the usual restrictions for how xps can be spent.

Hmmm. Just so we're on the same page: Have you read the Criamon section of HoH:MC? Because the background will be as you say it is, even though the behavior you describe is very strange for Criamon, considering their ethos as described in their chapter, sort of like describing a bunch of anarchic Tremere or uncouth Jerbitons. Such magi exist, of course, defying the stereotypes.

As a one-time occurrence, this is fine, even appropriate, considering that she has not had her Arts opened. If you want her to have visions in play, Visions might be worthwhile.

She seems to do a lot of self-mutilation. Is there a flaw in there somewhere? Perhaps Life Boost or LLSM might suit her too?

Some nice stuff in here.

Obviously, the magi never caught wind of this, and their research went on unimpeded. What Ability did she use to divert the money? I don't see anything like Profession: Steward or Clerk or anything that might pertain to financial adroitness. Artes Liberales is not sufficient.

It might also be that apprentices are only found one year in 21.

He already had a path. In a different House, I'd doubt her being permitted to develop in this direction, but this is Criamon!

Is 'divert' a pleasant word for 'embezzle' or 'steal?' Is she doing this without the knowledge of the magi? Despite her brother being in debt and the covenant's finances being strained?

What were its applications?

smile Thank you for the specific issue with Tristan for her to follow up on. (How does she know this, if he is doing it secretly?)

You might want to consider changing her Driven flaw to something that cuts closer to the heart of her. Being driven to do something is usually a secondary effect cascading from a primary source. Elyse, for example, has deep issues with sex, perhaps with men. Here she is, stepping away from the paths of House Criamon toward something else; does she have issues with authority? Does she feel the need to be the authority? Does she trust no one other than herself (and why should she trust anyone, after she has been disappointed by everyone from 'enlightened' Criamon magi to her own brother.) Establishing her pocket utopia, then, is a means, not an end. Casting it as such makes her more interesting, as a person. After all, what happens if she finds a mathematic proof that her goal is not possible? If her motivation is cast in terms of the underlying needs and emotions, she adjusts course and seeks another way. If left as is, there's a gaping hole at the heart of her. (There are times when Driven is dead right; for example, a person associated with faeries of the waters might be Driven to sail, and indeed would go mad too long away from water. But more often, the underlying motivation is something else.)

Also, if she already has particular insights, you might consider expanding her virtues and flaws to encompass and reflect this. Or not.

I do notice that you have taken her 'followers' as a Favors flaw, which reflects that she isn't going to get anything out of them, but rather, the opposite: If she's not useful to them, they will leave her. This might change over time.

Note that this cult doesn't really exist yet. Elyse has not developed any scripts, for example, and she is in debt to her 'followers' rather than the opposite.

The background doesn't say much about the Sanctum (soon to have a new name :slight_smile: ). A paragraph about it (without references to MtG) would be good.

Most of these are goals, rather than motivations. That is, she wants these things not for themselves, but to satisfy underlying motivations. Bingen is an enlightened community of women, in contrast to what she grew up in, so she wants to support it; her brother is kin, so she supports that; etc.

I do have a sense of character here. There are moments when I am on the brink of typing something about proportion, but you keep things on the right side of the line, stretching but not breaking my belief. Just so we're on the same page: The stuff that felt most real to me was the melodramatic (which is not a bad thing at all) aspects of the background. That is, she might want to retreat from the world, but, like any romance novel heroine raped on page 12 (do you know the subgenre I mean?) the world is going to follow, sometimes with an army, in the hope of raping her again.

Thinking about personality: What would she do if she came across a rape? A marital dispute that turned violent? A woman being punished in the village square?



I am aware of this...it is a trade-off from being older and more experienced. But yes she will probably spend some of her first seasons concocting a potion.

Int +1
Per 0
Sta 0
Str -3
Pre +3
Com +3
Dex 0
Qui 0

House : Criamon
Master: Gregorian ex Criamon

Hope that makes it easier to read :slight_smile:

Driven (Exist outside time) all Criamon strive towards this, ELyse even more so, and hopes to be able to through her Sanctum - now renamed Rebekahs Dream after her mother...feasible?

well she will loose their part in the Paragon Cult and their help in accumulating knowledge, artefacts etc. that's a personal loss, which will affect her mood, motivation etc. I feel we need more though, hmm..other consequences...what about a Bonisagus sponsored this cult, so the Quaesitors would not delve into it (it is not illegal, but all cults are checked in my book if brought to light - sometimes with nasty consequences if the Guernicus is a traditionalist) during her apprenticeship/or a few years after, in return for results? disappointing him could make him an enemy?

The path of the Beacon is not a clutch as such, but, quoted from page 73 of HoH-Mystery Cults "The Path of Beacons lacks a clutch, because it teaches Mysteries that allow
each individual magus to create a sanctuary from the strife of the world. Its eldest magus lives in a regio of his own creationon the Isle of Arran." perfect for Elyse!

understood, remember that Educated and Arcane Lore allows for xp to be spent on Academic and Arcane abilities before apprenticeship, thus making attaining her high scores possible. :slight_smile:

Yup, they are a bunch of stereotype defying Criamon on this point, not acting on regular aptness. I reckon I could add that Magnus had special valuable insights, which had endeared him even more to them, and made them blind.

Actually she was supposed to have Visions, I don't know why I have deleted it as a flaw! a glitch!

I hadn't thought about that, but I will give it some thought.

Thank you 8)

You are so right...she needs a rating in Profession: Seneschal? Or do you prefer the Profession: Steward/Clerk?

Or it could coincide?

Yes, they let her be raped, but find her Gift and path wishes interesting....sigh

Oh she did some creative bookkeeping allright...so yes stole...and probably brought the wrath of the grogs upon her, as it were their expenses which were cut, so the Criamon would not know.

Hermetic Numerology will be a part of the cult - she showed them that through arithmetic wondrous things can be done, as well as telling of her perspectives on Artes Liberales and Hermetic Theory in light of Greek philosophy (She needs a specialty in philosophiae concerning Greeks like Pythagoras)

Hmm true...that was my meta knowledge kicking in....Elyse does not really have any way of knowing. Her knowledge stops at the puppy love.

Regarding Driven, please see above :slight_smile:

True but she has an idea what she will teach them - Hermetic Numerology, Affinity with Artes Liberales etc.

  • Follow the Path of Beacon and create a Refuge away from the world, named Rebekah's Dream. Existing outside Time, it will embody the principles of Serenity, Insight and Immutability (She is developing a control freak syndrome... :stuck_out_tongue: )

I hear you...more motivation, now that the goals are in place... I shall write more about motivation and personality shortly, but please comment on the post :slight_smile:


Ok. I've made some test rolls on the table to see what this looks like. Expect some Decrepitude.

She has ordinary intelligence and no virtues that suggest she is inspired or creative. Not free expression, nothing heroic, nothing at all to suggest that she has a good shot to achieve her goal. That can make an excellent character too, someone who wants something and strives toward it but doesn't quite have what it takes to achieve it, except through luck (and she lacks those virtues too) and hard work (and she lacks any virtue that suggests the willpower and stamina to see things through against the odds); I suspect this is not your intention.

The numbers on the character sheet, taken alone, show me a character who knows a lot of things that other people know, and can convey them well. She is well-liked and beautiful. But I don't see a hint of inspiration. Her virtues reflect experience rather than potential. Her body doesn't show it, but she is old, passing middle age. This is not a youthful maga on the brink of maturity and overflowing with potential but a 50 year old woman, wise and wizened on the inside, given a second lease on life. considers Maybe this is your intent?

A favored virtue of mine is Strong Faerie Blood, which allows a character to go all the way to 50 without an aging roll, provides Second Sight and some other benefit. Since the realms are conflated in this saga, SFB is the same as Strong Magic Blood (or, for that matter, a character touched with the blood of the nephilim). All of the benefits seem applicable to Elyse, including being young even on the inside but also Second Sight and, say, freeing up 3 characteristic points from Pre that can make Str more reasonable. Being obviously touched by magic is also consistent with your concept for Elyse. Something you might consider.

She is even more ordinary here. Even charismatic leaders need to know what's going on. Attaining high skills in Awareness and Folk Ken can compensate.

I find this statistic inconsistent with her ability to overpower her husband and flee, even in a fit of madness. This is small child territory.

She is charismatic and eloquent, no question about that! Very shiny.

My previous comments and suggestions stand. This is a generic motivation; as you point out, all Criamon strive toward this. You'll have something much more interesting if you replace this with real personality traits and motivation. Your choice.

It's for you to decide and develop. Having a Bonisagus involved works nicely, or maybe there's a suspicious Quaesitor; whatever fits best. Also bear in mind that the 'followers' aren't going to very helpful for a long time until Elyse develops things; they are going to drag Elyse into stories and eventually, Elyse will have really won them over. After all, they are a Flaw "Favors" rather than a virtue "Minions."

Ah! But no so perfect that she wants to seek out this eldest magus and learn from him.... Why is this? The answer might help you refine Driven into a more personal motivation.

:slight_smile: I saw that, yes.

Or maybe they see hidden flaws in both Magnus and Elyse, and choose not to interfere? smile Elyse, of course, would not see it that way. And perhaps these Criamon have truly strayed from their path.

You are so right...she needs a rating in Profession: Seneschal? Or do you prefer the Profession: Steward/Clerk?
Whichever you like to get the flavor of it. A seneschal who can cook the books for a covenant or castle might have great difficulty wading through a merchant's accounts but knows all kinds of other things about managing land. A clerk might be able to deal with any kind of accounts and other documents and procedures too, yet know nothing about managing a covenant beyond that.

The rating you choose should reflect how difficult it was for her to hide things from smart magi, grumbling grogs and other covenfolk who might find out through various means. But if the magi were affected by her embezzlement, the game is up. Magi who allow Magnus to rape her body will have no qualms about InMe.

I notice a temptation to make the character good at everything, a bright and shining star with too few xps to go around. This may be my temptation, because I fall into it all the time. There aren't enough xps to be good at everything; even with my allowing more than 10vfs, there aren't enough virtue points either.

Yes, that's what I meant.

If the grogs blamed her enough to be wrathful, the Criamon knew.

Why would they follow her rather than do the usual thing and initiate through a Bonisagus, in the appropriate time? Hermetic Numerology is common enough in the Order; one of the other PCs even has it! And Elyse doesn't even know how to teach it. She has good Com and Pre, though; maybe Tristam really just wants into her pants and Claudia... who knows? NPCs are going to have personal, possibly aberrant, reasons for not doing things the normal way. smile Which is fine and good. Such NPCs are good for stories.

Bonisagi are not going to discourage her from Seeking new paths and scripts. Far from it. But they will also co-opt her into their plans.

Now, you can initiate a story in which Tristam doses her with a love potion....

I saw. Every word I wrote stands. You can take it, of course, and I will cede to your preference. But when the object that a character is Driven toward is primary, the resulting character is bland. The stuff that makes Elyse interesting, even human, has nothing whatsoever to do with her goal.


I noticed! That makes a far more incisive Flaw than "wants to create a Refuge." Driven "Must have my way" says a lot more about the person.



After he was taken as a hermetic apprentice, Geoffry was permitted to write to his family. At first, this was a great glowing closer for Geoffry. Over the course of a dozen letters back and forth, Geoffry began to feel like he was a member of the family. When he explained that no magus could swear the oath of a fealty, his father expressed pity and sympathy. The family remembered Geoffry as odd, but time and distance softened the memory. Finally, near the end of his apprenticeship, Viraxis encouraged Geoffry to visit his familial manor. “You need to learn many things, and your family is an important teacher for a lesson I cannot adequately give.”
When he visited, the servants nearly killed him before he even saw his father. His mother seemed distant, and always found a reason to be away from him. His brother James denounced him as a sorcerer unfit to bear the Testor name. His father seemed to keep his wits about him. He welcomed Geoffry, threw a feast in his honor (which ended in Geoffry being escorted from the feasthall for his own safety after some of the manor's men had a little too much wine in them). His father came to him that night. He explained how difficult things were at the time. The baron who was Sir John's liege-lord was claiming more than his duty of Sir John's crops. The fields were yielding less each year, and winters were harder than in the past. Sir John would really like his son to help him, to convince the baron to be easier on Sir John. Maybe some magic to assist the crops. It all seemed so fatherly. Geoffry felt like a real son, like apart of his noble family.
The next morning, Geoffry slept late, as was his habit. He eased his way through the house, looking for his father. He finally found him having a discussion with another man, the very Baron discussed the night before had ridden to the manor that morning to discuss something with Sir John. Full of pride from the late night meeting, Geoffry entered the room without considering the effect of his Gift on the unknown man.
The man saw Geoffry and demanded to know why he would intrude. Geoffry started to explain that he was his father's son, he was going to help them. The baron exploded, accusing Sir John of relying on “foul wizardry” “dark arts,” and consorting with the dark haired “changeling devil-child.” He cut off Geoffry's every sentence, before finally summoning guards and having Geoffry bound in a closet. John could only look on, for fear of further angering his liege. Geoffry saw his father speaking quick words to the Baron, while two of John's retainers drug the boy away. Once he was safely bound, they took turns beating him until he saw only blackness. He awoke to his father, kneeling over him, and shaking him to sense. His father spoke to him then:
“Do not come back here, boy. You are my son, and for that you'll live this night. If it were otherwise, de Blois would have spilled you're blood. He thinks me mad, or enchanted, to deal so with a changeling. But I know you are my son. I still see something of your mother in you. I am old, she is old. Our time is ending. But, your brothers will have nothing if we do not remain upright before men and God. I will not see my land, my life's work, and my children ruined by your magics. If you love this family, then do as I have asked. But do not return here bringing ruin in your wake. Now, get away from here before I change my mind and call for the hounds.”

Prior to becoming a full magus, Astris has little chance to engage in such activities. Astris's relationship with his family is very one sided. After the event above, he assumes that they will never speak to him again. Shortly after his Gauntlet, he will sneak to the manor to watch his family and see if there is something he can do to help. When he is spotted by his youngest sister (who may have Second Sight?) he talks to her. Being a little “unusual” herself she is less hostile than the rest of the family. Through her, he gains a limited ability to communicate with his family. He offers to help them in any way he can. They make some requests that he can easily help with, others are hard or require Astris to skirt Hermetic Law. He is not ignorant of the fact that they are using him, he just knows that he can't bear to lose them. As long as they are alive he may eventually impress them enough to ignore the effect of his Gift. I do think, for example, that his family can “tolerate” Astris's presence, but they can't stand the effect he has on their social peers, servants, etc...
For his part, Astris will try to “earn” their love and respect by secretly helping out his family. He may, for example, rescue his father if he were captured in war. Or purchase his ransom with magically created silver. Or provide magical devices to aid his father or brother in war or peace. The worst instance to date may occur a few years after Astris becomes a full magus. But he gets word of his brother fighting in a tournement. Asris will sneak to the tourney, as use magic to ensure his brother wins high honors. Maybe a squire notices an odd shadow, or even hears some kind of magic chanting. They nobility may put two and two together, and think Astris's brother hired a wizard to help him. Hilarity may ensue.

Astris's experience in the monastery was not a good one, but it was something of a refuge. He had to be up at dawn (tough on the boy who usually slept late). They did teach him Latin and the like, which he enjoyed, but the dull reading of the Bible, praying, chanting, day after day, was more than Astris could bear. Adding the growing effect of his Gift on the monks and lay visitors and the whole experience was very frustrating. On the other hand, Astris has a firm belief in God. The idea of a loving deity appeals to the need he has for acceptance and a stern God with a heart for justice appeals to his somewhat childish desire for revenge on the people who have made his life difficult. However, he is only indifferent to the clergy. He understands the way the Church works and though he agrees that the Church maintains the line of apostolic succession since Peter, he is able to see the problems in the Church; such as petty corruption and indulgence by the bishops. Astris would make a good early Protestant, if he somehow lived long enough to see the Reformation.
However, as discussed before, as his Gift grew and the monks treated him worse, he eventually made a run for it.

] Finally, a paragraph about Viraxis is important, because the parens of a Tremere remains an important figure in a Tremere's life. "Hard but fair" describes too many Tremere. Develop this a bit, and you can initiate stories "because my parens wants me to do this and I don't want to disappoint him."
Viraxis has an air of mystery about him, at least to Astris. He literally seems to know what Astris is thinking, before Astris can even complete the thought. His teaching style would be described as praise when excellent, disappointment with average performance, and a swift painful reminder of the importance of training when anything less than good results are achieved.
Viraxis was the first person since Astris was a small boy in his mother's arms to not treat him as something odd or unsusual. He was never friendly, but would let Astris babble on about knighthood, his family, the monastary etc. As Astris got older, Viraxis would allow him more freedom, and Astris greatly appreciated and respected it. When Astris returned home from his disastrous visit described above, Viraxis placed his arm around Astris's shoulder, and comforted the young apprentice. Viraxis has a deep, baratone voice that sounds strange coming from such a thin man. Viraxis measures his words like a goldsmith weighing his materials. Every word Viraxis says is careful, almost ponderous, and calculated to have the maximum effect. By copying Viraxis's style, Astris has become a better teacher and communicator. Viraxis's magic focused on transformation, he was an expert at Muto, but ensured his apprentice had a grounding in multiple techniques.
Astris is Viraxis's third apprentice and he has the reputation for being a good teacher. (Astris would have the virtue skilled parens, but Viraxis allows his students more freedom than many magi, so his excellent teaching averages out to a standard apprenticeship).
As a magus and person, Viraxis values self reliance and self determination. All three of his pupils have had the Blatant Gift. He himself does not have that curse, but he is skilled at dealing with young people who have labored under the effect of the Gift. He is patent, calm, but firm. He teaches by sending his apprentice off to do things, where inevitably, the apprentice must use his wits and knowledge to get by. Viraxis demands close obedience from his pupils. A single syllable from him can stop the worst rage that his pupil may experience.
Viraxis raises so many pupils to replace the son he lost. As a much younger magus, Viraxis married a peasant girl and delayed his longevity potion long enough to get her with a son. The boy had the spark of magic about him, but not the full Gift. Astris never learned how the boy died, as such was Viraxis's most painful memory. Judging from his behavior on the anniversary of the boy's death, Astris suspects that Viraxis had something to do with it.

Note that neither path will cause people to respect him as a knight. To the vast majority of Euorpe, Astris is persona non grata (and even the 'persona' part cannot be taken for granted.) He has enough OoH lore to know that House Tremere mostly doesn't think much of the institutions of knighthood and nobility, but tolerates these barbarisms because it is expedient; he similarly knows that hoplites are respected by some but not by others; and conflating hoplites and nobility is closer to a classic Flambeau perspective than Tremere. Astris might not be typical, of course! And why should he be?

The OoH presents special challenges to a magus who wants to be treated as a noble, from its tradition of democracy to its laws against involvement in mundane affairs.

considers You might want to give some thought to what Astris' life would look like, if he could order the world to his liking. After all, a powerful magus often can! [\quote]

Tremere was terrified of being the youngest and weakest founder, and Astris is terrified of being a weak magus (or more to the point, he was so socially ostracized that he just assumes he doesn't live up to the “ideal”). In what amounts to a reaction-formation, he has responded (much as Tremere did) with a pride and drive to impose his will on the world. Internally, he still has his insecurities, but he would never let someone else see them. Maybe Viraxis gets a slightly closer view, but others are kept at arms length. (e.g. he has a high etiquette, but no charm; he knows how to talk to people, but not how to make them like him. He lacks a genuine interest in the other person, or so it seems.)
Astris will strive to place himself at the top of any organization, but is conflicted between being the open leader and being the power behind the throne. Part of his nature years for the romantic “knight in shining armor” while part looks at the world and wants to retreat to a dark sanctum where he can manipulate events from afar (like the stars in the heavens do with out lives).
Upon further reflection, Astris would not seek to be a hoplite, but will devote himself to raising as a Tremere. Having younger magi look up to, respect, and obey him is something he (unconsciously) craves. If asked to explain he would simply say that he has the blood of a leader, was born under Jupiter (the star of Kings) and Venus (the ancestor of Caesar), and schooled by the Tremere's best teacher. His rightful place is at the head of that House.
If he never fails, Astris would likely rise to be Primus of Tremere, would unite the House and probably try and succeed where Tremere failed- to unite the Order under one banner; his.

Astris desperately desires love and acceptance. He will likely seek a familiar soon after the gauntlet.

Astris is (it goes without saying) a virgin. He finds the idea of using ReMe to remedy that fact distasteful. But as time goes on and his natural charms continue to fail, he may find himself doing something he will both regret and beat himself up over for years to come.

My sense of Astris so far is that he remains an adolescent more than just in body; I don't sense the passions and personal interior I might expect of someone pushing 30. If his being emotionally arrested at 14 is deliberate on your part, we're golden, though I'd then want to understand more about your intentions for Astris' development. [\quote]

Yes, quite. In terms of his growth, obviously a character that does not grow is boring. My idea is that growth for Astris has to be deliberate. As I said, his magic, his personality, even his very being is related and reflected in the stars above. Like the stars he is fixed, but the power of the stars impels, not compels. He is not incapable of growth and change, it simply comes harder for him. As he “ages” and learns more about how the world really works, he will come to have a more mature view of the world. Although he will still be in many ways a teenager. His theme is the power and insecurity of youth. There are subthemes of rebellion (acting out within the social norm is still a form of rebellion), longing for love and affection, and longing for recognition. Finally, at his core he craves a secure, safe place, where the barbs and arrows of the world cannot hurt him.

Asteris ex Tremere
Birth name: Geoffry son of Sir John Testor
Religion: Catholic
Nationality/Race: English – Norman
Apparent Age: 15

Born January 7, ____

Int +2 Per +2 Pre +1 Com +2
Str +1 Sta +1 Dex -1 Qui -1

Proud +3
Reckless +3

Demon touched changeling +2 (Friends of his family)

Age: 29 (15)
Warping: 0

Virtues 13p
The Gift
Hermetic Magus
Minor Magical Focus (Certamen)
Privileged Upbringing
Flexible Formulaic Magic
Improved Characteristics
Affinity with Artes Liberales
Celestial Magic
Good Teacher
Cyclic magic (night)
Method Caster

Flaws: 13 pts
Blatant Gift
Careless Sorcerer
Chaotic Magic
Proud, minor
Black Sheep

Norman French 5 (Courtesy)
English 3 (Giving orders)
Athletics 1 (Good endurance)
Awareness 1 (alertness)
Brawl 1 (Dagger)
Etiquette 3 (Nobility)
England Lore 3 (Nobility)
County Sussex Lore 2 (geography)
Church Lore 2 (bishops)
Intrigue 2 (plotting)
Survival 2 (England)
Swim 2 (holding his breath)
Artes Liberales 2(10xp with affinity) (astronomy) – from Privileged Upbringing
Single Weapon 2 (arming sword) – from Privileged Upbringing
Latin 4 (Hermetic uses) – 3 from Privileged Upbringing, 1 from apprenticeship
Code of Hermes 2 (Mundane relations)
Order of Hermes Lore 1 (House Tremere)
Magic theory 4 (vis capacity)
Stonehenge Tribunal Lore 1 (Covenant relations)
Parma Magica 1 (Mentem)
Penetration 2 (Mentem)

Cr 6 In 6 Mu 6 Pe 0 Re 6
An 0 Au 0 Aq 0 Co 0 He 0
Ig 0 Im 6 Me 5 Te 0 Vi 0


Doublet of Impenetrable Silk
MuAn 15
R: Touch D: Sun T: Individual
ArM5 p 118
Items affect by Astris's version of this spell shed tiny star-motes when struck with violent force.

Charge of the Angry Winds
CrAu 15
R: Voice D: Concentration T: Individual
ArM 5 p 125
Astris's version of the spell has tiny star-motes streaking along with the wind.

Whispers Through the Black Gate
InCo(Me) 15
T: Touch D: Concentration T: Individual
ArM 5 p 130
Astris's version of this spell has the voice of the deceased fade in and out, like a star twinkling

Aura of Rightful Authority
ReMe 20
R: Eye D: Sun T: Individual
ArM5 p 151
When cast, Astris's version of this spell fills the pupils of the targets eyes with stars, so that someone looking closely at the eyes of the target would see specks of white in the target's pupils. The specks for a constellation that is relevant to the mood or intent of the spell when cast.

Shining Star of Illumination (As Lamp Without Flame)
CrIg 10
R: Touch D: Concentration T: Individual
ArM5 p 140
This spell takes the form of a bright point of starlight that fills the area with a cool glow.

Blade of the Virulent Flame
CrIg 15
R: Touch D: Diameter T: Individual
ArM5 p 140
When the flames engulf the blade, tiny star-motes fly from the tips of the flames.

Personal Veil of Invisibility
PeIm 15
R: Personal D: Sun T: Individual
ArM5 p 146, lower range
Faint stars are visible in the shadow left by this spell.

Shroud Magic
MuVi 15
R: Touch D: Momentary T: Individual
When cast on a spell, Astris's eyes are briefly filled with tiny stars, visible to someone closely observing him.

Gentry dress*
Tremere robes
Arming sword and dagger
Leather armor* and kite shield (stored in his lab) (in game terms this is a partial load of leather scale, and a heater shield)

  • Astris makes a habit of enchanting the leather armor and his usual clothing with a Moon duration version of Doublet of Impenetrable Silk every month. Cast at night, with no stress he cannot botch, and will always succeed (Mu 6+1 Sta +3 cyclic magic +aura + simple die) =at least 11 vs Spell level 20. After years, if they have not already been otherwise replaced, he gives these items away before Warping becomes apparent.


Astris is a thin, pale youth, with no facial hair. Rather than a full magus, he looks like a new apprentice. However, he carries himself with a sure step and a raised chin, looking even senior magi in the eye when he talks to them. There is something of a noble manner in his bearing. He wears usually wears fancy or stylish dress, suitable for court. His long black hair is held back from his pale skin in a braid. He has a pronounced widow's peak, which looks odd on a person his age. Although he is thin and pale, he does not appear sickly or weak. Around his waist hangs an arming sword. The handle is worn from long hours of practice. Astris's eyes are a shocking shade of vibrant green. On formal Hermetic occasions, he wears the blue-black robe of a newly gauntleted Tremere. When worried or expecting trouble, he wears a hauberk of leather scales and carries a shield with his father's coat of arms, differenced with a large star upon it.

Casting Sigil:

Astris's spells always involve a star or stars, or phenomena associated with stars, like twinkling.

Voting Sigil:

Astris's voting sigil is a small star ruby incised with the astrological symbols of Jupiter and Venus. Currently the sigil is held by his parens.

Motivations and Goals

Long term, Astris wants the life he always thought he should have. He wants to be looked up to as a noble knight, protector and lord. He wants people to respect him, admire him, and to be honest, defer to and obey him. He will struggle to raise himself in the Tremere hierarchy to satisfy his ego and need for security and acceptance.

Astris desperately desires love and acceptance. He will likely seek a familiar soon after the gauntlet.

Astris loves his family and wants the best for them. They are the only people who can treat him they way they do without being crushed. But Astris will let his father kick him like a filthy cur until the day he dies. Maybe if he just does more for the family they will accept him. Astris knows that this is unlikely, but he can't bring himself to abandon his family.

Astris gets along well with his parens. Viraxis saved Astris from a life of pain, so even the hardness of his training is not enough to discourage Astris's affection. Astris wants very much to “live up to” Viraxis's ideal.

Astris is aware that he has only a very general understanding of magic, based on knowledge of techniques alone. He wants to find and study primers for the Forms and decide on an area to specialize in. In the first development cycle, Astris plans to study the Forms and set up his lab. He will check on his family regularly- and will likely create a magic item or use some spell effects to bring them some direct but hidden benefit. He will try once again to get close to his father, only to be rebuffed or used for his power.


Please incorporate this stuff into the general background, so it's all in one place.

Looking good:

Thanks. That's the kind of thing I was looking for.

Prior to becoming a full magus..... will sneak to the manor to watch his family and see if there is something he can do to help. When he is spotted by his youngest sister (who may have Second Sight?) he talks to her. Being a little “unusual” herself she is less hostile than the rest of the family. Through her, he gains a limited ability to communicate with his
She might have Unaffected by the Gift. Having the Gift or being odd provides no sympathy for others with the same plight.... Or maybe he got lucky, because the nasty social effects are fickle, which of course makes them nastier.

Indeed. The impression I have from this section is that he hasn't yet done anything that would transgress Hermetic Law were he a magus, but he is quite willing to. Which is fine, if that impression is consistent with yours.

I sense a certain muddledness about religion, which is fine if that confusion is Astris' rather than your perspective of Astris. On the one hand, the Bible is dull and so is prayer, on the other hand he believes in the Church despite its flaws, apostolic succession, and all that. This is fine, since many young men believe but really don't enjoy the praying and stuff that goes with it. Similarly, I sense a tacit acceptance of most theology, but no real passion or interest either for or against. Again, fine if that's your impression too.

Thanks. This is very helpful. I see Viraxis in my mind's eye and can play him if the occasion arises. Based on the above, you can be pretty sure about his Hermetic age, that upon your Guantlet, Viraxis will himself have been a magus for 84 years, possibly 105.

grin That's sort of a Dark Secret too.

Or he might get seduced by a maga who thoroughly manipulates him. :slight_smile:





I posted the date of the Gauntlet, so you can figure it out from there.

No problem. Most items Warp slowly, unlike people, so there is rarely an issue.

There's stuff from the previous post to be incorporated here. Looks good.




If I recall correctly, two players have completed character sheets. A few others have things in the works.

I have opened a thread for completed character sheets and background representing PC magi attending the Grand Tribunal of Summer, 1180.

If your character sheet and background are complete, please post it there, one post comprising both text and statistics. If you are not sure, ask here. :slight_smile:



Yes, this is what I intended.

From my perspective, not Astris's: He believes in God, Jesus, and the Saints. But the earthly Church and its obligations has no real appeal to him. Atris is quite orthodox, but this is not his passion and he probably has never thought of himself as being orthodox. Living a monastic for a while just made him glad to be free of the routine and ritual of religion. Nevertheless, he is does not doubt the teachings of the Church, but doesn't really dwell on them. He would be shocked and repelled by rank heresy, but not the equally heretic but subtle twisting of a slight point of theology.

This is by no means a conscious thought, plan, or even idea in Astris's rhinking. This is just what would happen if everyhting just naturally went Astris's way- if he never failed at anything. He is driven to succeed, but it will take many years, even decades, or success before he comes up with an idea like that.

Quite right.


nod :slight_smile:

I think we're mostly done, just a new character sheet with background that incorporates the stuff you have elaborated in our conversations. (That is, so I can refer to that rather than this thread.)



After our discussions, I think I have a better handle on the character than I did at first. Due to that, some of my thinking about how to model him under the rules has changed slightly. I may make a few mechanical tweaks, for example, I think may need the Mentor flaw to represent Viraxis.

If I do make any such changes, I'll post them here first for approval before moving a single, completed character over to the other thread.

Hello all.

I can not let Marko and Max get into a game without me :smiley:

After much thought I have a decided on a concept so I thought I would check in first before doing a real deep dive. This is very rough at this point as I'm bumbling over virtues and flaws.

short version... A sea captain/merchant who wants to explore.

Ronan O'Ferry Ex Misc

Background & childhood: A recent ancestor had married a silkie and had seven children by her over the 15 years they were together. She left when she was able to find her seal skin but the family believes she still watches out for her family. Most of the family is fair skinned with red hair but those with more fairy blood, like Ronan, have black hair.
Son of a fisherman. Went to sea with his father at the age of 5 and learned the family business throughout his youth. He had a great curiosity for exploring new things and for what lay over the horizon.

Apprenticeship: Ronan was 13 when he was "discovered" by "Black Jack" Tar ( known to the order as Jovinus). After much negotiating, Ronan's father agreed to allow the boy to be apprenticed. Jovinus Ex Misc was a merchant and frequently sailed to distant ports for the order and profit. Ronan learned the trade of a sea captain as well as a mage.

Goals and Motivations: On his travels during his apprenticeship, Ronan met many of Jovinus's colleagues in the Society of Ptolemy. They were scholars who were trying to reproduce Ptolemy's work of exact locations. The Society was trying to do it solely by mapping stars and reading books. They talk about the zero longitude but seem to have no desire to leave their labs. Thus many in the order refer to them as the Society of Zero.
Ronan would like to find the Zero Longitude because he feels it would help him to explore new lands over the horizon. He knows he has a lot of preparation to do before he can begin his quest.

Conflicts: when he passed his gauntlet, Black Jack gifted him with command of a small cog. The ship is not his and he does not feel that he can go off on his own yet. He has a contract with house Mercere to carry Redcaps or cargo for them as needed.

Sing to the winds ( free)*
Affinity Auram (Free)*
Gentle Gift 3
Way of the Waters 3
Immunity to Drowning 3
Well Traveled 1
Quite Magic 1
Affinity Rego 1
Social Contacts 1
Fairy Blood 1

  • house virtues

Favors(House Mercere, Jovinus) 3
Waster of Vis 3
Driven (Discover zero Longitude, find new lands) 3
Humble 1
Reckless 1
Limited Magic Resistance Terram 1
Hedge Wizard 1
Ambitious 1

Sing to the winds is like whistling the wind from HoH:S
Way of the water will need a ruling as I'm stretching the Way of the Land Virtue. I can change it if you feel it is too powerful.
I might try to fit in Fairy Friend to represent his mother watching or just leave it as a background part.






Overall, the concept is good, but motivation needs development.

There I was, hoping for a bunch of players who would jump in and say, "At last, a game that uses some of Ken's deviant rules!" But... I'll take it. :smiley:

chuckle Yes, that's fine. I've played with this concept too. A bit obsessed, actually; I have different versions, ranging from a secret wandering Jew to re-casting The Doctor as a magus...

These motivations need development into something that arises out of character. A sailor who explores because he wants to find a place where Jews won't be persecuted and who vengefully sinks ships is different from a sailor who explores to make vast profits and have all the luxuries he didn't have as a child is different from one whose fairy blood is so strong that he cannot stay away from water for too long is different from one who wants to make a great discovery for any one of many deeper motivations, ranging from curiosity to vanity to jealousy....

As a basis for a character, this works fine. Now the clothes need a real person inside.


Ex Misc major virtues are not free; this needs to be balanced by a Flaw.

Drowning occurs so rarely that I'd consider this a minor virtue.

I usually see Driven as a red flag signifying that the character needs a real personality. I have no idea why he is driven to do this. Most of the time, a flaw of this kind is just a placeholder for "gotta adventure." I challenge you to go deeper, to the stuff that lies within that makes him want to do this. It's the deeper stuff that makes Ronan a character.

That's an usual combination. Please tell me more about this.
Limited Magic Resistance Terram 1
Hedge Wizard 1

Especially in combination with Driven, this one suggests that a deeper look is warranted. Nothing wrong with an ambitious, driven character, but I don't have a sense of the character's interior which is the source of the ambition and drive.

Am I making sense? It's like the difference between saying Magneto feels driven to take over the world versus saying that Magneto despises and distrusts a humanity that unleashed one Holocaust against his people and would do it again in a heartbeat. It's like the difference between saying that Indiana Jones feels driven to collect cool artifacts versus saying that his father won't love him unless he proves himself, or so he believes. It's like the difference between saying that Spike likes being bad versus saying that he'll do what it takes to get the girl (versus saying that he needs the validation of a dominant female because his self-confidence was rent by the ridicule of his peers).

Motivation need not be melodramatic. And there's room for a character who simply so loves the sea that he is driven to sail, obsessed. Yet this person then needs something else to fill out the hollow inside with the breath of life. Returning to Indiana Jones, he and Belloch (sp?) are both driven to recover artifacts, are both willing to use violence to achieve their aims, are both able to enlist allies... and yet they are fundamentally different characters because the most important part of them has nothing to do with their being archeologist-adventurers.

If you want her to show up regularly, take it. If she shows up rarely or not at all, don't.



Still working on a new draft :slight_smile:

first pass. Takes me a little bit to plum the depths. :smiley: Good feedback.

ArM makes their flaws so general at times it is hard to use them to define a character cleanly. I wanted him to be reckless at sea. To revel in a storm so much that he does not use his powers to lessen it. So he would risk his ship sailing through the Cyanean Rocks but not swing from a chandelier to land on group of 6 pirates. I choose Humble just because that is how I see him. So Humble and Reckless. Better to say Humble and Reckless at sea. but people would not understand that.

I'm redoing the virtues/flaws with this in mind ( although I do not know the Spike reference :smiley: )

Spike was thye name of the bulldog from the Tom & Jerry cartoons :mrgreen: