OOC Chatter: Anything goes!

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Shores of Albion
981

In this specific instance, i'd prefer sticking closer to your HR as published, something along the lines of: With respect to Wards and Aegis of the Hearth, the Parma Magica of a magus may be suppressed by the foreign Aegis if the magnitude of the Aegis is twice the ability score of Parma Magica. As this would take care of everyone but Heims and Attravere, you could easily have someone in the room casting Wind of Mundane Silence at them (although that is problematic based on the wording of the spell, but that is more simply house ruled, too).

Or heck, let Heims and Attravere go unmolested and see us contort ourselves in strange knots to try and convince them to stay loyal to Blackthorn. Or increase the power of the effect...

982

The warding effect of an aegis is completely separate from its dispelling a foreign magus' parma. An aegis dispels parma because the Parma is an effect foreign to the aegis, which as per RAW, must penetrate the Aegis in order to be maintained. You can either A) have a chance to maintain your parma in a foreign aegis by calculating its penetration as a ReVi CT, as it is now, or B) parma is always dispelled when entering a foreign aegis, period, because Parma cannot have a penetration total (RAW).

These are your two options; pick one as a troupe, and we'll stick with it.

Be aware that changing it so Parmae are always dispelled with no chance of penetration is going to benefit your foes more than it helps you; the PCs are young, and their form resistances are generally not as good as their opponents'.

983

The dispelling effect says: "magi...must subtract half the level of the Aegis from all their Casting Totals." So, the best way to match it is again by magnitude comparing it to Parma ability score. If half the value of the Parma Ability score exceeds the magnitude of the Aegis, it stays up.

You're options are: a) have a chance (but really there is no chance, see below) and b) always lose Parma because it can't penetrate, again something not based on RAW.

I'm not fine with either option for the house rule, as I said, both of those have pretty serious cosmological implications to the game world. I honestly fail to see how an Order can exist that allows a single spell to defeat Parma Magica so easily. No one would ever venture into any other magus's covenant if the Parma Magica could be defeated so easily. It elevates Aegis of the Hearth to be stronger than Parma Magica. It elevates ReVi above all other Arts in ensuring that Magi state protected, which is the entire reason behind a Parma Magica skill as per RAW. Instead of one ability to protect themselves, magi now need Parma, Penetration and high Re Vi scores. My concerns about it are cosmological, and the fact that it is revealed well after the game is underway without any discussion. Since the minimum Aegis is 20th level, the necessary ReVi score is 40. A ReVi CS of 40 is pretty darn high, even Attravere or Heims, both Rego specialists are just over halfway away from that level. To do a 30th level, they need CS of 60, 40th CS of 80, and 50th CS of 100. Apollodorus had a ReVi CS of 99 Re 84 Vi 15. So, IMO A & B are equivalent choices.

That's what I mean by cosmological impact. Aegis of the Hearth becomes better than Parma Magica, and magi will have very little reason to ever go beyond their covenant.

984

To be honest, I'm not comfortable with an Aegis blowing down, or even suppressing, Parma Magica under any circumstances. Parma is described as "an Ability that grants magic resistance that adds to the resistance arising from a maga's Form scores." It's not described as a Spell, or even a spell-like ability. It's something that seems to be a breakthrough that has yet to be properly explained by, let alone fit into, proper Hermetic theories.

The things that the description of Aegis of the Hearth says it protects against:

  • Any spell cast toward the Aegis (originating from outside it) by any magus not involved in the ritual. Parma is not a spell and only affects the casting magus, so that's not it.
  • Spells that bring objects into the Aegis. The Parma doesn't bring anything into the Aegis, so that's not it.
  • If a foreign spell cannot penetrate a resistance equal to the level of the Aegis, it fizzles out. Again, not a spell, so this doesn't apply.
  • Foreign Intellego spells (even those that can't be blocked by Parma Magica). Not Intellego in any way, so it doesn't apply.
  • Spells that were cast before they entered the Aegis, such as an invisibility spell cast on a magus outside the Aegis. I think this is the closest thing to what Arya's saying, but again, this only applies if you rewrite the Parma Magica to be a Rego Vim spell as Arya seems to have done. However, the rules as written say that it's an Ability which is described as a Ritual that takes two minutes to perform, not as a Ritual Spell that takes two minutes to cast. My understanding of the rules as written lead me to believe that this provision doesn't apply, either.
  • Spells cast within the Aegis by magi who were not involved in the casting of the Aegis subtract half the Aegis's level from their Casting Total. Unless you're performing your Parma Ritual within the Aegis, this wouldn't apply. And if you were, it would only apply if you rewrite Parma Magica as a spell.
  • Effects from an Enchanted Device. You can't instill Parma Magica in a device, so that doesn't apply.
  • Creatures with a Might Score can't enter unless their Might is higher than the Level of the Aegis. Magi don't have a Might score, so this doesn't apply.

Of the eight effects of the Aegis listed, only two could conceivably apply, and even then, only if you completely rewrite the Parma Magica. Doing so, I think, would effectively cripple the Order. Instead of (as the Aegis description states), feeling a slight tingling in the extremities when approaching the border of the Aegis, the first sign a Magus would have that they're approaching a covenant would most likely be the collapse of their Parma (unless you interpret "approaching the border" to indicate a warning zone, perhaps a pace wide, along the boundary).

Having Aegis quash the Parma would result in very few magi ever leaving their covenant for any reason, unless they knew for certain that their path to the other covenant would not cross another covenant's boundary, and unless they knew for certain that they would not only be given casting tokens at their destination but that they would not be un-invited as the Gallus Florensians were.

Even the effects of Winds of Mundane Silence aren't limited to spells and Parma Magica; if it were, then I could see a tenuous link to this and the Aegis effects we've just discovered in this saga. However, the spell description and the Guideline both say that it applies to any magical effect, not simply spells.

So, in a nutshell, my opinion/belief is that Aegis of the Hearth has no affect on Parma Magica whatsoever. I could conceivably make an argument that, if you are within a foreign Parma without a casting token at sunrise or sundown and need to renew your Parma, you would make a Stamina + Parma Magica roll against an Ease Factor of (3 + magnitude of the Aegis), just like a transformation roll for Bjornaer, which actually makes perfect sense to me.

985

It can be dispelled with PeVi, so it is a magical effect.

Heartbeast form cannot be dispelled because it is innate to one's essence.

986

Also remember:

  • Aegis of the Hearth is a significant vis investment
  • Covenant locations are a matter of public record
  • Magi don't venture out of their sancta very often

I am really, really not keen on the idea of having to make a major retcon on one of the major plot points of the saga because you're uncomfortable with a mechanic that is extremely unlikely ever to affect any of your characters ever again, and I'm like /------/ this far away from saying "fuck this" and dropping this saga altogether.

Your characters should not be navelgazing about whether their Parmas should have been lowered when they were disinvited. They should be wondering what the hell the magic introduced onto them was, how it can last on them longer than a month when there was no signs of a ritual being cast, and how the hell it lasts longer than a year because that simply isn't possible under Hermetic magic.

987

Man, I really thought long and hard about responding.
Here goes.
It's not a major retcon. It's a rather minor retcon of what happened. Something knocked down the Parma. An 8th magnitude Aegis knocks down the parma of anyone 4 or under. I'm actually fine with Aegis being able to do this. I think you're level is a bit on the low side, but that's another debate. No, my issue is to put in a plot point you have to institute a major House Rule that isn't previously disclosed. In order to get Tektonius to a point of figuring out what's going on, if he's even capable of doing so, I have to understand it as a player. If I can't understand it as a player, then I can't move forward in character. Now, my concern with your HR is that it has major consequences, and it completely up ends my understanding of the Order.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's 4 pawns of vis annually for a 20th level Aegis which is effective against anyone with a ReVi CS of 40 in your HR. Not many people need much more than that, ever.

Except PCs seem to do that. Young ones. Who would, under the HR, never have a reason to visit another covenant.

You want us to stop navelgazing? The players have to understand what's going on. It is, IMO, a violation of the game contract to institute a HR on something of this magnitude, to make your plot point work, especially when I (we?) think there are other ways of doing this. I think you tell interesting stories. I think you bend some rules to do it, and IMO, that's OK...sometimes. As a player, I don't understand the significance of the plot point, didn't some of the players resist it? That's how they know something happened?

988

Also, it's a really major pet peeve of mine to play the "take my marbles and go home" card. Anyone can do that at any time. I think all of us understand that. Allow us to help you work through the issue to everyone's satisfaction. Almost always there is more than one way to get to the place you want to go. If you don't want everyone to know pick someone and ask them, switch it around, mix it up.

If I get stuck on something, I ask for help. IF I make a ruling, based on my interpretation of RAW I allow myself to bend to the troupe if they are all against me, even if I think I'm correct. This just came up in the Ars forum, and I said if everyone at the table doesn't agree with an SG's ruling it's a problem. If it's a HR that isn't adequately explained/disclosed, then that's a big huge deal. If you're unwilling to listen to our arguments over RAW or a HR that's dropped on us, then this isn't a game. It's a story, and you have all the pieces pinned down to the point that we're not doing much more than going through the motions.

I'll repeat it here, I think I've said this before, if not here, then elsewhere. Subtlety doesn't work in PbP. It just doesn't. I've tried, a couple of times. Players zig when you want them to zag, they don't have the benefit of body language to understand what an SG wants or is hinting at. The clue-by-four needs to be used frequently and repeatedly.

989

Speaking only for me and mine, but Cygna's not. Cygna was aware of the effect that Aegis has on Parma. The player, on the other hand, is trying to wrap his head around this new house-rule. If, in your saga, Parma Magica is a de facto Rego Vim effect that has to penetrate an Aegis's level to stay up, I'm fine with that, now that I know about it. It makes a character have to choose between, oh, surviving a Ball of Abysmal Flame and being able to interact normally with magi in other covenants, though.

We've at least mentioned that in-character. All anybody knows is that it's some kind of Mentem, but that's all any of us know.

See, now, this is new. I went back and reread pages 5 through 7 of the Policy and Protocol thread, then reread them again, and reread the post where we took the oath a couple of times to be sure I didn't miss it the first half-dozen times or so. And I am still not seeing anything indicating, either in- or out-of-character, that either the players or characters knew any of this. Maybe I'm missing it. If so, please tell me where it was so I can slam my head against my cricket bat a few times, because I hate feeling like I missed something obvious.

990

AFAIK, Tektonius won't even be able to discuss it with anyone until sometime in the Autumn when he can come to Gallus Florensis, unless Sophia doesn't need him to do her LR anymore. I understand why Sophia is being recalled, but he was also kind of Tektonius's hook into GF. I hadn't gotten much traction with any of the characters to get an invitation otherwise. So he's there, but he's generally busy working. I don't have any idea what he's going to do beyond the summer, hadn't really thought that far ahead, as a player or character. His world got destroyed when he was blackballed from Oxford, remember?

991

I needed at least one person to resist it so that there would be knowledge of when the effect was instilled on the magi.

I needed most of the magi to BE affected so that the PCs have ample impetus to investigate what's happening to them.

I needed at least one person to notice who was looking tired, so that later on the data points are there to be connected.

You don't have a problem with an Aegis knocking down Parma (I didn't even realize it should until I'd seen you adjudicate it). If your problem is with how I determine whether a magus' Parma can penetrate, then fine, they can just all be unilaterally dispelled. That's fine.

The major source of frustration for me is I'm trying to not only weave together engaging and interesting stories, but also to make sure your characters are going to PURSUE them.... But, no, you don't like the mechanic, so to hell with the story, because you wanna keep your Parma no matter what.

Seriously? Well, fine. You all kept your parmas, no effect ever happened to any of you... and later on when shit hits the fan, no one has any clue who or how or why.

Does that make you happier?

992

Can it not be all or nothing?

Where did I adjudicate Aegis knocking down Parma? I mean, I forget stuff I write sometimes, but I don't ever recall making that judgment in my saga... Are you talking about Marcus asking to bring his Parma back up? He surpressed it, and asked if you were done before letting it come back up.

993

I don't recall where I saw it first. Actually I think it might have been somewhere in Phoenix. I just recall that it had never occurred to me that Parma would go down in a hostile Aegis until you mentioned it.

I don't care anymore. You guys drcide how you want mechanics to work and I will try to work in what plot elements can fit with your decisions.

I will post IC again after there is some consensus telling me what exactly is being retconned.

Just do not whinge about it later on when you all feel like you're working with too limited information. That's the cost overruling the clue by fours.

994

If it were entirely up to me, I would say that Aegis does not dispel Parma Magica (it's a Rego Vim effect, not a Perdo Vim), which is rules-as-written.

However, given that the fact that Aegis of the Hearth can dispel Parma Magica appears to be a major thing in how things are going down, I do [b]not[/b] have a problem with the house rule that you've put out that Parma Magica is a de facto Rego Vim effect based on a combination of the character's Parma Magica score and their ReVi casting total with penetration.

I would, however, like to have that put in the House Rules section for reference, especially if any of us have to make new magi or we have new players down the road so we can try to balance Protection Against Magic against Being Able To Interact With Other Magi, because with this House Rule I don't really see how you can do both as well as you could before.

995

That's something PB and JL aren't going to agree on. Because it's less bookkeeping for me, Parmae don't have a casting total and therefore cannot penetrate, and are always dispelled upon entering a foreign aegis without an invitation.

996

I too don't have an objection about Aegis bringing down the Parma Magica, it's been hinted at before, either in the forums or perhaps in one of the sourcebooks, I don't recall. In any event, I dislike the mechanic, it isn't simple, and as I said it elevates ReVi above all other arts, which, if I recall, was part of the problem with 3rd editon and prior, no? Forgive me, I don't have my 3rd edition book, that and an innumerable number of MERP/RoleMaster products were left in the care of my ex-wife, and I'm sure she probably trashed it.

I would, instead suggest that the Parma is supressed, or less effective perhaps. Without a token, the Parma is brought down half the magnitude of the Aegis, which in this case is 8 for a reducing parma's 4 and under to 0.

997

That's fine, as long as we're aware of it up front.

998

So. I was out mowing the lawn Tuesday afternoon, about 5 or so. I don't normally have my phone on me when I'm mowing the lawn, because I get phantom tingles if I have it on vibrate and I can't hear it when I don't. I'm also bad about checking my phone for missed calls or messages whenever I'm back where my phone is. Along about 7ish, I remember to check my phone and see two missed calls, at 5:11 and 5:43, from the same local number that sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure it's the chocolate place I interviewed for last week. And I'm thinking, sweet! They called twice in half an hour, that's a good sign, right?

I call them back after breakfast Wednesday morning, around 8.30 or so, and sure enough, it is the chocolate place. The part-owner I interviewed with isn't in yet, so I leave my name and number. And I wait. And I wait. And I wait some more. She finally calls back a little after four, to let me know that she had narrowed the field down to two for the position, neither of which was me.

So, right now, I'm not in a very good mood, nor in a very good place emotionally. And some other stuff going on yesterday all over the place didn't help my mood much. So, if I come across as pissy, bitchy, cranky, or otherwise not my normal shooting-rainbows-out-my-ass kinda guy, I apologize and hope you understand.

999

I can live with it. I don't have to like it, do I? It's much less complicated than adding ReVi and Penetration to the mix, which was my big huge concern. It's going to give even the mightiest magus pause to declare Wizard's War, because holing up in the Wizard's Tower becomes a very real and valid defense strategy. Only those with massive forms resistances are going to try and come through the Aegis.

1000

Many hugs.