You've hit one of my major sore spots with RAW, and one that poor @Vortigern has heard for over a decade and a half now. The apprenticeship XP calculation is so incredibly far off of what one would realistically earn in play that it's not even funny. And I'm not even talking about having a particularly good Parens.
So my only gripe here I think is inconsistency, the more I've thought about it. (And considering Aegis is a breakthrough/major discovery in its own right the inconsistency seems easy to justify.) That said ... I think you are correct in that it does make the primary method of mystical fortification employed by the Order more effective, and overall that is probably a good thing. If we estimate that most Aegis effects are level 20 or 30, then a -10 or -15 is effectively like a 2 or 3 extra points of Parma Magica for the defenders in any siege scenario, which ... isn't a small bonus, even from just a typical Aegis.
And while dispelling an Aegis is certainly possible, the Vim skills necessary to do so with proficiency don't seem all that common. Much less with the house rule for ritual magic being necessary. So it would again reinforce why a siege like that of Praesis was necessary to defeat it to begin with (and why they needed a traitor from within the Covenant to give them unpenalized access).
I think we'll keep it as is then, and since it is RAW no ruling note is necessary.
If you (+4 other magi) can cast a lvl 20 Aegis with pen 20 (to keep Might 20 creatures at bay) you can also cast a lvl 50 one with penetration 15, which is arguably way better? You wonât stop high might creatures, but honestly, the 25 debuff seems a lot more useful to me.
So, I'd expect most Aegis to lean on the higher level side, at the expense of penetration. This does take some coordinated effort to raise lab total, so perhaps not a lvl 100 Aegis⊠but as high as you can manage, yes. Lvl 40 to 50 should be doable, perhaps even 60.
The limiting factor with regards to that I think would more so be the vis economy, and the escalating yearly costs. But I would agree higher is better, and I would imagine greater than a simply linear increase in effectiveness.
I suggest all of us make at least two "adventuring" grogs, to go with our intended minimum of one companion each. It rounds out the group for each Magus and it gives a character for each/all of us to play in each group centered around each Magus.
I still need to brush off Atheus stats and organize my companion's character sheet (are we going to have character threads for each companion?), but I should be good to go on the 21th.
I'll work on the adventuring grogs alluded above, that should be quick.
Do you still need support with those?
If you could take a stab at the west coast that would be appreciated. And I have nothing more written for it than is already posted and visible. I will endeavor to expand some more on the east with what Iâve already done and some more notes I have.
Some of the recent discussion regarding hermetic hospitality made me ponder that Inchmore is likely to experience just such requests. In fact some of our Covenant hooks set us up for travelers and the like expressly, and as a ceremonial/diplomatic hub besides.
How do you all see the Covenant sustaining/hosting visitors, and where would we be putting them up? In the manor house? A guest house inside the ringfort?
Thoughts?
This kind of thing reminds me the reason I love this game.
I remember listening to a podcast episode about Irish hospitality laws, and they mentioned a paper called "He is not entitled to butter" about what a guest must legally be offered (and can request) according to his rank.
I think in Hibernia specifically, where hospitality laws are strongly tied to your rank, we'd most likely have something on the peripheral code dictating both what you are entitled to when visiting a different covenant and what are your obligations and limits as a guest.
And this would be dependent on your rank as a magus, with an Archmagus being entitled to more than a journeyman magus. Other Tribunals surely also make this distinction (treating an archmagus better), but the difference is that in Hibernia this wouldn't be simply politics, it is law. Eg. if an Archmagus visits you and doesn't get his quota of honey he can legally bring up charges against you in the tribunal.
I don't think we need to draft the peripheral code, but it sure is fun to think about it!
Being a bit more practical:
- Any magus is entitled to being housed inside the Aegis. They can always refuse, but doing so without good reason would generally be seen as arrogant (as if your Aegis is not high-quality enough)
- Inchmore has both guest quarters in the manor house and a guest house, and can readily house up to 4 delegations (assuming each one has 1 magus + up to 6 grogs) (I'm just spewing numbers here, but I'd like to hear what the other's opinions on specific numbers are).
- A magus staying for 1 season or more might be entitled to a guest lab depending on his rank.
- A magus is entiled to a basic lifestyle (adequate food, lodging, etc) amounting to a +1 living conditions modifier, regardless of how long he stays in the covenant.
- Hedge wizards are entitled to the same treatment as long as their rank qualifies them as magus. Since the Hibernian custom is rooted in rank, not in Gift, this means that an unGifted but famous hedge wizard might be treated as a magus, while a Gifted but unknown hedge wizard might get the treatment of an apprentice (for example).
Thoughts?
How does this sound so far?
Ăth Liag literally translates to "Ford of the Flagstones". Located on the bank of the river Suck, the main tributary of the Shannon, it was built around a natural ford, for here the riverbed is shallow and firm due to the natural flagstone formations. This makes Athleague a major chokepoint to move cattle herds, supply trains or soldiers. It is also a boundary between the lands of the UĂ Maine and the UĂ BriĂșin families. A toll station controls passage through the ford.
While still rooted in the hibernian traditions and lifestyle, Athleague also has one of the earliest founded churches in Ireland, established around 500 A.D by Saint Manchan (who is invoked to keep pestilence and disease at bay). By 1200 the site evolved from an early monastic cell into a formal institution under the Augustinian rule (and if we follow history, it will partially burn down in 1235).
While it hasn't evolved in the dense, nuclear town one would find in England, the ford and the church work as a hub both for economic and spiritual life, with trading and bartering being conducted daily, and while not being a site of pilgrimage itself, being part of the route for pilgrims.The current ruler of Athleague is Brian Ă Conchobair, married to Ava Dillon, of the Dillon Witches of Athlone. A distant descendent of RuaidrĂ Ua Conchobair, last High King of Ireland, Brian wants nothing to do with politics, and is better known by his poetry than his swordmanship. Regardless of that, he holds a strategic position, which means politics want to have a lot to do with him.
Traveling 2 miles up river one will find the Castlestrange Stone, a granite boulder decorated with spiral patterns. A faint magical aura surrounds the stone, but it is not known to have magical powers so far.
I want to give Athleague some additional hermetic significance, but I'm not sure of what, specially since it is Connacht territory.
Also, if I was looking for a reason for for Brian to marry Ava, I'd look no further than the Manchan monastery. I can expand towards this direction if you think it looks promising.
I like it! @Vortigern your thoughts?
As an aside, I dug up an extremely rough pricing guide that we had thrown together quite some time ago. To everyone else, I need to stress that absolutely zero of this is set in stone and I very much want your feedback. To be clear, this is a rough pricing guide for the Order at large, and circumstances (such as a tribunal being large or small, vis poor or rich etc can easily change things).
Again, I'm sure there are parts that in hindsight aren't the best, but that's why I'm throwing it out there for y'all to tear apart. I uh mean please be gentle with me?
Item Creation: Cost x3 pawns of vis
Other Seasonal Labwork: Vis Extraction lab total x2 pawns of vis
Teaching: Please note that you'll still have to work with us to determine who the teacher is so that we can flesh them out. We may assign additional bonuses (Com/Lab/etc) as we deem appropriate.
Spells - Lab Total/15 pawns (rounded up).
*I had considered scaling this upwards after a certain amount, say 30. So Total/15 until 30, then remainder /10 until say, I dunno, 70? Then remainder/5 until whatever practical limit we decide has been reached?
Arts/Supernatural Abilities -
Teaching Score (not counting specialty) - 1/3/5/7/9
Art/Ability Score - 5(3)/10(5)/15(7)/20(9)
*Note that each movement up the chart (on both sides) is a pawn of vis. And you total the two. So far example, a teacher with a score of 5, and an art of 15 would cost you at a minimum 6 pawns. Also much as above, I had considered not using a flat increase and say something like 1/3 are a pawn each, 5/7 are two, 9 is three. Do something similar with the score. First two are one, third is two, fourth is three.
Borrowing an Apprentice - 1-3 pawns, generally speaking, depending on the age/quality of the apprentice.
Borrowing a Lab - 2-5 pawns, generally speaking, depending on the quality of the lab/aura.
Suffice it to say I've had some inclement weather and schedule disruptions where I am that have impacted my ability to pay as much attention as I would like/had planned to things. I will be endeavoring to correct this over the next couple of days!
Everything you have so far I like.
I would emphasize that the native Irish have a cattle based economy where cattle are the literal unit of exchange and maintaining herds of suitable size/wealth are required, literally legally speaking, for maintaining different levels of social status. This is also part of why many Irish remain semi-nomadic, moving with the herds their economy is centered on.
This is also a big part of why the Irish like to raid for cattle, because cattle are both literally what spendable money looks like to them and status symbols. Lord Brian needs a certain minimum influx of cattle whether by breeding or raiding (which is customary) to maintain his herd size and thus status, while also paying his taxes (in cattle of course) to the royalty of Connacht. So we can expect that the people he rules in Connacht are, per force, engaging in such traditional Irish raiding and semi-nomad lifestyles.
Lord Brian and his immediate court/entourage and his castle/manor/whatever can be a limited exception but he also likely uses hospitality in traveling around his lands and have his vassal lords host him as a significant way of controlling them and exercising his rights to mitigate his expenses etc.
Many traditional Irish ringforts/raths are made to be temporary/disposable, and able to moved and/or rebuilt as the seasons change and the herds move. But with some semi-regularity as to the sites used. The English at times have difficulties for this reason in really "nailing down" the Irish since when attacked outside of the few actually large(ish) cities in Ireland, they can and will literally pack up a ringfort/rath and simply move away from the hostile English for a bit, and then come back next year.
This seems likely given the interest of the Dillons. Also Lord Brian is ... not as simple as he seems and has his own plans for his witch-wife, his cousin at Inchmore, and his royal blood, but what those are I haven't completely worked out yet. The Dillons are ambitious, and so is Lord Brian, but what exactly their plans are together are undefined.
Very interesting. Worth exploring at the very least, whether it makes for a super solid motivation/reason or not.
It is also worth noting (now that I remember) that the royal center of the Faerie Court of Summer is located either in or nearby this region held by Lord Brian as well.
Which that might also be a way of bringing home a significant Hermetic level of importance?
We aren't quite where I wanted to be before opening but I think I'm going to open anyway and try to keep things going for us all regardless.
I am intending to have two starting threads for us, one aimed at Grog tier characters and one aimed at a Magus/Companion tier problem. The first one we aren't quite ready for since our grogs aren't all ironed out, but I will be writing an opening scene for the Magus/Companion thread to get us going here soon.
Neat opening scene!
I assume:
- all magi are full members
- we have arrived for some time now (days/weeks)? Enough to be familiar with everyone (other magi, lower council members, etc)?
- we have already elected a Rector (Vorsutus?)
- the Aegis was already cast
Any rules of engagement? Like, coloring or boldening our posts, writing the name of the character ahead of the speech, avoid posting inner thoughts (narrate only that which can be seen), etc?
Yes!
My assumption (which perhaps should have been expressed) is that this is the case (all Magi are present and established as members) and this is the first Covenant Council meeting to take place doing âregular businessâ after the broader body of patrons have all departed. The elder magi from the patron covenants are gone and now life and a new equilibrium must be sought without them.
Absolutely!
No, and I make no assumptions about who that might be. I certainly donât assume it will be Vorsutus! Though if he is elected then he would do the job to the best of his ability.
Yes. In the appropriate days of the astrological transition well before this meeting for administration etc.
Glad you like it!
The rest are optional style elements but I do think this one is essential. Knowing what a character is thinking is great. Writing it out in public is something else from a gameplay perspective. As a general rule I think writing for roleplay works best when it focuses on what characters can actually perceive and interact with, and the rest is left to the other writer to judge and make inferences. A great deal of perspective and information transfer problems in games can be prevented this way. And in general I personally think it also pushes people to write a bit better (showing and not telling as it were).
There is a thread with posting guidelines: Saga Posting Guidelines
Thanks!
Had forgotten about the Saga Posting Guidelines. I probably should do a quick check on every topic ever posted here (they aren't a lot, really).
How are people feeling about getting play ready?
How about for posting in the IC thread?
If anyone needs anything from me please feel free to post/ping or pm me directly, however you like to get my attention on things.