Fair enough. I think though that Nova Castra's status as a covenant sponsored by the tribunal will lead to some forbearance on the part of the other covenants. After all, we weren't founded in the normal way: we were ordered to go to a particular spot, as opposed to siting the covenant at the location of a suitable patron. The other covenants will I think understand that we'll have to spend time finding a patron who's suitable--and I suspect that imitating Moero's Garden would do us more harm than good, since it would risk turning a measure in extremis into a precedent that makes the patron rule effectively meaningless.
I'm not fully clear - when you're talking about the other covenants being understanding, are you meaning they'll recognise us as a covenant anyway, despite us not meeting the requirements (which I'm not convinced will be the case, given the patron is a peripheral code requirement and not just a social convention), or just that it won't make everybody hate us?
Do we really want to wait another seven years before being eligible for citizenship?
I don't think they'd officially recognize us, but it's possible, given the unusual circumstances (when I set up the saga, I didn't have the patron problem in mind). I'm just not sure why it matters much whether we're officially citizens or not: what happens if we're not?
Scott
I think they'd have to actively change the peripheral code in order to recognise us, which is a pretty big ask (especially as it feeds into the existing tensions between the League Against Idolatory and the more traditionalist elements of the tribunal). Anything that looks like it's removing the requirement for a patron (or even is a step in that direction) is going to receive support from some magi (mostly those from Gigas and Oikos tou Eleous), but definite opposition from others. Whilst Gregorius would be all for it IC, OOC it feels like the sort of thing that would be the culmination of a lot of work, rather than a background handwave.
If we're not official citizens (politai), we're resident foreigners (metoikoi). This is a second-class status - whilst we actually can vote at tribunal (contrary to my expectations before looking it up), we can only do so in the Hermetic Assembly (which tends to deal with civil matters such as the various degrees of citizenship and contrition etc.) - we can't do so in the Law Assembly (which covers changes to the peripheral code) or the People's Court (which covers hermetic crimes). In addition:
- We can;t submit a proposal for a change in the peripheral code (probably particularly relevant for us here...)
- We're not eligible for any office
- We can't make a formal complaint about any office holder
- We can't participate in the shards or tokens system. This means, in addition to the basic drawback of not being able to use tokens gained to get favours from other magi:
- We can't take any apprentice from the apprentice presentation other than the ones left over at the end no-one else wants (and this will affect next tribunal as well, as you give tokens to apprentices before the tribunal starts).
- We're not eligible for the tribunal's provision of Longevity rituals - both Viola and Gregorius are going to start aging in the next 7 years (although it's true there are other ways to get them).
Not being a formal covenant probably also puts our claim on vis sources in question - whilst it's true the tribunal wants us to exist, some of the more fervant defender of the tribunal's traditions are the Hedyosmun Tytali...
[Edited for new information.]
I don't think either of us is running for office, and I'm not sure we'd have the political wherewithal to change the peripheral code anyway.
The shards thing might be serious. The apprentices problem is conditional on our using the canonical tribunal apprentice system--we never decided on that, but it didn't seem especially popular with the players back when we discussed it.
Viola isn't overly concerned about a Longevity ritual for the moment, given her faerie nature--and she'd probably like to try to have children at some point (admittedly, it might be easier to do that sooner rather than later, but she hasn't exactly been looking for romance).
One possible solution is to say that the Tribunal made us members of a sponsoring covenant (or covenants) for the time up until we've established a patron.
Scott
I'll have Fray dedicate a season to some items we chatted about earlier, if that is something that the two other Magi woudl still like (old post). I cannot find what was discussed around using vis, payment or somesuch for crafting covenant items. I'm thinking of the Eyes of the Cat effect and the Doublet of Impenetrable Silk effects in lesser items.
Is there still interest?
In the Theban tribunal it's not a matter of running for office (or at least, not for the junior positions) - citizens are drawn out of a pool by lot, and can't refuse to serve without getting a shard (and get tokens at the end of their term assuming they've done a decent job). We wouldn't be eligible for it this tribunal in any case, as the names that go into the hat are those who were citizens before the start of the tribunal, but it would affect whether we were eligible next time.
I quite like the Theban apprentice system - whilst it has its downsides (principally the wait until someone who's been found can actually start their training), it also has the advantage that it's easier to pair up suitable magi and apprentices, rather than it being semi-random. I think the main objection to it was that Cuchulainshound didn't like its interaction with his Bonisagus apprentice-hunter concept, which is a moot point now. Admittedly I haven't reread the relevant bit of the thread recently, so I might be forgetting other people's reactions.
A variant of the sponsoring covenant thing is the thing I'd been thinking about already with Gregorius and Gigas. By a strict reading of the rules, I'm not sure it works, though, as a citizen has to be resident at an established covenant, rather than a member of it (page 32 of TSE).
I think there's still interest, as long as they're devices that can be used on multiple people at once, rather than something for just one person to wear.
The other thing Gregorius would now be interested in is a high penetration version of Shape of the Fearsome King that could be given to a grog (preferably with Puissant Brawl) for the annual horsefight (as well as just more general combat utility). No point in risking a magus' / familiar's life and lab time if we don't have to, plus it gives the covenant insurance against personnel changes.
Obviously we pay your vis costs. In addition to that, maybe:
- 4 pawns for the minor items
- 6 pawns for the lion skin
This is assuming that they're all lesser items (and also that the covenant isn't broke, given that Gregorius is also paying Stephen for lab note translation and the Tremere for a wall - I think we're okay for now, but Gregorius does tend to be a bit profligate with vis...)
Fray cannot easily make Shape of the Fearsome King as a simple device as his lab total is not really high enough yet (MuCo/An 30 for R:Touch, means target LT 60+), and Fray's LT would be around 68 (see below). That does not leave much room for Penetration (only +8 Pen) which I don't think is useful.
It could be created as a complex item, but that would require 3x seasons and more vis. I'll do that instead of crafting the other items, or another magus might be able to open the device for enchantment too to save a season. At present designing the effect for a max level of 45, in a complex item will get the best return on two seasons of work, and that might mean level 30 base effect with +30 penetration which would be really effective.
(Note LT is 68 = Int +3, Magic Theory +8, MT-Specialty (Muto +1), Muto +21, An/Co +11, Aura +5, Lab Mu/General quality +2, InventiveG +3, Transformation-Cloak +4, Muto-Mercury +5, similar spell +5
A lion pelt cloak with mercury embedded in a silver latch, would be material Leather 2, and Size x4? )
I'm not wild about the Theban apprentice system. I agree it makes sense, but it does stomp all over a favorite [i]ArM[i/] trope, and I seem to recall that I had some questions about its praticability. That being said, I could live with it, though Viola really should be taking another apprentice before 7 years from now (or could be be citizens before the next tribunal). Any other opinions? Do you remember what thread it was in?
Scott
I suppose the first question is "how much penetration do we need?" Unfortunately we don't know the horse's exact Might, but Fray can probably have a guess based on the spells we've cast at it:
- Stephen's Hands of the Grasping Earth failed to penetrate. That had a penetration of 9+die, so the horse almost certainly has more than 10 Might. Which isn't exactly surprising.
- Fray's Shape of the Fearsome King succeeded with penetration of 24 + die
So its might is probably somewhere between 10 and 35 - and I'd guess based on its nature it's probably in the 20 - 30 region.
We might be able to bring down the penetration needed in the device by triggering it in a more powerful aura than the horse will be fighting in, but I'd rather leave that as a back-up plan in case we realise we've misjudged something.
So, we have two options - try to boost Fray's lab total to the desired level, or switch to an invested device.
Fray's base lab total I think is actually 69, as he also has a lab bonus of Items +1. I'd recommend using shape and material of Animal Hide (+7 turn into an appropriate animal) + cloak (+4, capped at +2) rather than bothering with the Mercury, but it doesn't make much difference (and I suppose the Mercury might be useful for other enchantments if we do go down the enchanted item route). That means +9 penetration (or possibly +8 depending on how you want to do rounding).
I agree your calculation of the vis to open (I think the clasp and the embedded mercury would only be tiny, for 6 and 5 pawns, which means he couldn't quite open it as a compound device at the moment - which does limit the number of other effects we could put in it. That's probably not an issue unless someone has a brilliant idea for what else we should put in, though).
I'd also suggest creating the item with Concentration duration and Item maintains concentration rather than Sun duration, as this won't warp the grog, but that still leaves the level at 30.
Switching to an invested device has the advantage it allows us to instill other effects later as well, to make our "lion" more powerful; however, a lot of these could probably also be done in separate devices unless there's a reason a liniked trigger is valuable (or we can't do those in one season either).
If you did do it as an invested device, you could get a total level of 46 in two seasons, which would give you +32 penetration, which is probably but not certainly enough.
Options to increase Fray's lab total include:
Lab assistants.
Fray has no leadership score, so he's limited to 1 assistant unless he gets a familiar or all of his assistants are Bonisagi, their familiars or their apprentices. Potential assistants ranked in order of utility rather than availability are:
- Viola: Int +4 + MT 8 + items speciality 1 + IG 3 = 16
- Stephen: Int 3 + MT 9 + IG 3 = 15
- Constantine: Int +1 + MT 6 + lab assistant speciality 1 = 8
- Cicero: Int 1 + MT 6 + lab assistant speciality 1 = 8
- Gregorius: Int 1 + MT 4 - Creative Block 3 =2 ; also causes your final lab total to be reduced by 50% (Weak Enchanter) and your project to cost a third more vis (Waster of Vis).
So in theory, having Stephen and Cicero would probably do the trick; however, asking a fellow Bonisagus to be your lab assistant is probably a bit gauche (plus Trogdor hasn't posted in a while now). An alternative would be Fray spending a season to get leadership 1 with an appropriate speciality, at which point he could use 2 assistants regardless of who they were. That does still requires the assistants' time, though (and you really don't want Gregorius, which means we're talking getting either Stephen or Viola involved to get the necessary lab total).
Experimentation
This would give +3 (IG) + Risk Modifier (max 2) + simple die, which probably isn't enough to make a difference on its own. I'm also always reluctant to experiment on projects involving vis usage due to the potential resource wastage.
Boosting his Scores
This has the advantage that it's useful to Fray anyway, and the project isn't immediately urgent.
We don't have a useful Muto book. We do have a Corpus and an Animal book; however, the Animal Summa is a bit rubbish (Q8), and you'd need to raise both to get a single point of lab total. The other option is boosting your Magic Theory - we have 4 tractatus on this, which with your affinity would get you to MT 7 in two seasons (for +2 lab total due to the increase in the shape and materials cap), or 6 xp under MT 8 in a year).
You might also be able to enchant (or otherwise acquire) an item that gave you a boost to your lab totals.
Again, none of these are going to make a big enough difference on their own.
If she really wanted to, she could keep an apprentice rather than hand him over to the tribunal. That would get her two shards, but that's more of an IC problem - and there may be other ways to get round it. Does she have any particular ideas for where to get an appropriate apprentice without going through the tribunal system?
I'll note that Gregorius does have a plan to try and extract potential apprentices from the local slave trade and pass them on to the tribunal in exchange for tokens - see his recent letter to Boustaphan.
We can also wait to craft the Lion Pelt - which I think will be best at present. Fray can still cast the spell on a grog when needed anyway (using FFM to move R:Per to R:Touch) and let them fight for the covenant. Same with the growth spell to make the Lion form huge (a Size 6 lion). Suggest we pick a grog to practice in the transformed shape too, maybe Bogdan & Godzimir go somewhere quiet so it does not freak anyone out too much?
That way Fray can invent other effects or items now, and work on his arts & lab. A few years might make a dramatic difference. I also need to plan Fray's longevity ritual (urgently), apprentice, and then a talisman.
She doesn't have any plan at present. She's more worried about the lab.
Mind you, given our location, we're much more likely to find potential apprentices than the average Theban magi.
Scott
Unfortunately I think there are a couple of problems with casting the Lion spell on the grogs:
- It'll be level 30, so it'll warp them. This probably isn't a complete dealbreaker for a one-off fight, but it's going to cut off practice
- It's not going to count for Fray's Focus. Combined with the increase in level, it's therefore only likely to have penetration of 8 + Aura + die, which probably isn't going to be enough.
Maybe? We're not near any major population centres, so other than extreme luck with the local village we're pretty much left with the slave trade - and that's going to require continuous monitoring rather turning up one day and searching.
I've found the original conversation about the Theban approach to apprentices - it goes over several pages, but starts near the bottom here: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6498&start=840
Sheesh. I remembered I didn't like the apprentice and token systems, but I couldn't remember why. Give me a day or two and let me see if I can think of a version of the Theban apprentice distribution system that would actually work in the "real" world.
Scot
I have to admit, I generally prefer to keep things close to the book - easier to remember, and reduces the potential for new people being unaware of / confused by the changes.
Good points again, darn. It will take Fray a lot of dedicated years to get that Pen total up - which may not be best in his broader story.
What about Fray learning the Communion spell and casting the spells with other Magi helping?
He could also re-create the spell in a Season for a specific grog(s) to help with warping. That helps with Aegis pen totals so it might work.
Iām also interested in inventing MuVi effect to refocus a spell for a target which avoids warp. I took inspiration from a thread on the forums and wrote it up a while back. If Fray invented it for the Lion spell it would only need to be D:Sun so slightly easier mechanics.
Fray might serve better by looking for new vis sources and scouting the area around us, rather than enchanting devices.
Scott