opened failed apprentice

In societaes [strike]Tremere[/strike] Tytalus are described as abandoning apprentices who do not develop the proper attitude. It would seem to me this could lead to failed apprentices who are otherwise trained as Magi- they wouldn't know parma magica and wouldn't have the rights of magi in the tribunal, but they could easily still be gifted and open, but the failed apprentice social status states that you cannot have the Gift, while HOH:S states that being abandoned results in being a failed apprentice without losing the Gift- how would such a character be made? Why wouldn't this use abandoned apprentice from apprentices, and can an abandoned apprentice be used as a lab assistant without making them an apprentice?

IMHO, They could be sold to other magi. Termere want total buy-in on their philosophy. anything less is a danger to the other House members. If a master feels that his apprentice does not/will not be totally commented to the House they can sell them to another, less picky mage.

Sorry, I meant Tytalus, not Tremere.

[strike]In a saga where the Tremere are darker, "abandoning" might just be an euphemism for an untimely end. Or it may be quite literal, in that the apprentice is abandoned in a place where he has no chance of surviving.[/strike]

Well, for Tytalus, the abandonment would simply be that. There are very little secrets to be shared with other houses there!

I don't quite know what silveroak is talking of.

HoH:S p.83 has Tytali occasionally abandon apprentices deemed unfit for the House:

This looks like Tytali abandoning those apprentices whose Gift they did not open completely, and unload the rest to other Houses.


EDIT: Others noticed as well, while I was crossreferencing, quoting and typing.

The gift is opened in a single season, how do you partially open the gift to decide whether you might abandon the apprentice years later?? I mean losing most of the gift due to a lab accident or other problem is certainly understandable, but losing the Gift because you disappoint your Parens in failing to achieve the proper attitude of rebelliousness?

Even in a single season, a lot can go wrong. There is no "either/or", and we don't know the methods individual Tytali use.


The point is they open the gifts in a single season at the start of the apprenticeship and then according to the text, decide to abandon them years later resulting in the failed apprentice flaw...

Who says that? Not the text I quoted.


The "abandoned altogether" is probably for those apprentices who failed by not being up to the challenge -- resulting in a damaged or destroyed Gift.

Tremere --> Tytalus, I think.

I'm not sure such apprentices often survive such abandonment....

Reputation is everything for a Tytalus, and who wants a living monument to failure as a master? Worse, that he knows too much and is otherwise useful to his enemies.

But if you get your hands on one.... An abandoned apprentice used as a lab assistant can legally be stolen from you by any magus who wants to complete his training, and most magi will applaud this action. So you can use him, until other magi find out and do something about your terrible behavior. Of course, if the apprentice is too useless to train then he is also probably too useless to use as a lab assistant.

Have fun.




From what I remember of the Tytalus chapter, they do not always succeed in convincing their apprentices that the way of Tytalus is best. Not written explicitly, but probably also sometimes they end up with an apprentice whose true nature is to be nice, kind, gentle, submissive, pliant, whatever. Such apprentices will never make a good Tytalus! At that point, these failures can be traded to magi from lesser Houses for resources or otherwise abandoned. Obviously, this must be done in a way that makes the Tytalus magus look good! Or at least makes the Tytalus not look nearly so bad, damage control.

This is different from a Failed Apprentice, who for some reason can never become a magus. These guys make great lab assistants, and there is little worry about such being stolen to be an apprentice. (Of course, since we are talking about Tytalus magi, it would be a coup to steal the lab assistant, convince the Tribunal that the assistant really can be an apprentice, utterly abuse the 'apprentice', and arrange an 'accident' or other event just before a Gauntlet would reveal the deception, and then make up a great story about it. Steal a magus' assistant, get praised for it, and then build up a great reputation for the assistant capped by a heroic death.)



the sentence before the line you quoted.

Which is in the section right after the later years of apprenticeship and the fact that the first test for a Tytalus apprentice is to force his master to accept that he is ready to take the gauntlet. My impression is that the apprentices are simply abandoned when they are too meek to force the issue and there is no way to foist them on another house for whatever reason. I would expect this to be reflected as an abandoned apprentice flaw, but the text specifically says they are a failed apprentice..

I think you're overlooking the publication dates - HoH:S predates Apprentices by a number of years, does it not?

I think there is no way any Mage just abandons an apprentice who has had their arts open and they have been taught. My guess is that if the Tytalus apprentice fails to live up to the expectations of the House then they are gotten rid of permanently. Otherwise they might have some ritual that ruins their Gift then they dump them. Just turning a 1/2 trained apprentice lose is a Crime in the Order.

Abandoned apprentices are abandoned apprentices. It's not supposed to happen, but it does (Apprentices 58).

It's a low crime for the abandoning magus, though I imagine it's not often prosecuted. (This can also happen if an apprentice's parens is killed and nobody else steps up to claim him.) Abandoned apprentices normally either find another magus to gauntlet them or simply go to ground and become eremites; unless they've been taught the Parma, most magi are not going to care unless they think they can use him.

HoH:S 83 suggests that an abandoned apprentice get the Failed Apprentice Social Virtue. In my opinion, this is incorrect; abandoned apprentices are not failed apprentices, they're abandoned apprentices, and if they show up at a Hermetic covenant, someone's either gonna finish their training, just Gauntlet them, or kill them.

There are certainly runaway apprentices from masters of every House. But a master abandoning those with a perfectly opened Gift commits a low crime, and a Tytalus just abandoning such an apprentice also fails bigtime. (See ... #Politique for a famous case of this discrimination in history. :slight_smile: ) Tytali hence might be the last to admit to such, as jebrick explains:

Anyway, HoH:S p.83 makes an apprentice abandoned by Tytali a ArM5 p.42 Failed Apprentice without the Gift, but maybe with some signs of the Gift lost. Certainly, creative reading of HoH:S p.83 should not allow a player to bring up such a Failed Apprentice character with Gift intact and opened by an Hermetic magus.

In analogy to

, that rare apprentice of a Tytalus, who succeeds to run away from her master with Gift intact often enough to actually make him give up chasing her, might be made a maga immediately, perhaps with the Hermetic name Papilio. She thus may be the rare and outstanding example of a pacifist Tytalus.


So presumably the Tytalus house has found an otherwise unknown PeVi effect that can strip away or ruin the Gift?

There is a common effect known to most people in Mythic Europe - and Hermetic magi often have it administered with a dagger by their shield grog.


very droll. However that does not produce a failed apprentice, that produces a corpse.