Optimising for counter spelling

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

It's not PvP as much as reckless disregard.

She got one of her covenmates killed because she threw a lightning bolt as a suspicious shape, which turned out to be a PC sneaking around (She was found guilty of this killing at Tribunal and is awaiting sentencing). She nearly got my character killed in a similar fashion as I was invisibility trying to take a sample from a restrained supernatural beast that she felt needed to be destroyed with lightning.

So I want to make sure that if she does that again, it bounces back on her. As my Parma won't protect from the amount of penetration she has. It would also protect against NPCs who might use it. Particularly if I also had an ignem equivalent.

Where are the rules for the extra mastery options you mentioned there?

42

All can be found in the spell mastery booklet pdf available on the Ars Magica page of Atlasā€™ site.

Orā€¦

Adaptive, Stalwart, and Disguised are Mercurian Mastery options and can be found in Mysteries, HoH:TL (Mercere chapter), and HoH:S (Flambeau chapter)
All others can be found in HoH:S, Flambeau chapter except for Rebuttal which is under the Lineage of Pralix in the ex Misc chapter of the same book.

2 Likes
43

I was speaking to your use of the ā€œturn that spell back on the casterā€ spell as PvP which it very much is. It may even be interpreted as a high crime without it hurting or killing her.

I mean sheā€™s should probably be Marched so not sure what youā€™re worried aboutā€¦ or at least punished harshly enough that she should think twice about doing that again.

Much better advice might be learn a spell similar to her lightning spell and master it for Magic Resistance which will double your resistance (2x total of Parma and Form Resistance) for that and other similar spells. Also, upping your parma and Auram, the second of which will help you create that similar spell and possibly improve your soak for mundane Auram threats like suffocating or natural lightning or sand storms.

EDIT: By harsh punishment short of Marching Iā€™m meaning death or severing of familiar, destruction of Talisman level punishments and Marching if she does not submit to one of those.

44

You could also just poke her hard with a stick to counter her spell casting. Even dodging is a pretty brutal concentration roll while casting a spell.

45

There shouldn't be any guideline because it's really about bullshiting an art you're good at and convincing the gamemaster your counterspell works. You can counterspell a pilum of fire in a lot of art: Creo or Rego Aquam to douse it, Creo / Rego Herbam or Terram with walls, Perdo Ignem obviously as well. Muto Auram with a relevant requisite might make sense, Muto Ignem to something else might make sense, so might Rego Ignem to move it out of the way or fast-protect yourself from the flame. Rego corpus to teleport out of the way might work well too. Rego Animal to teleport a bull in the path of the pilum might work... I'm sure there are other options (OK, using Mentem is rarely ideal, but I suppose even Rego Imaginem might be argued to move your image elsewhere to provide a different target to your attacker...).

I'd allow the special circumstances - I wouldn't allow the magical focus, unless you narrowed it down somewhat in the type of spells cast.

2 Likes
46

In that case, it does not coincide with what a Fast Cast Defense is. A Fast Cast Defense is some effect that's meant to protect you from a spell or other hazard. Any TeFo combination that might reasonably protect you works. Anything that moves you out of harm's way; misdirects, delays or distracts the attacker; changes or redirects the magics used; creates an impassable barrier to protect the target etc. The hazard is not necessarily cancelled, merely made harmless.

Keep in mind that the Fast Cast text:

In general, a fast-cast defense with half the level of the attacking spell is enough to protect...

comes unchanged or almost unchanged from the ancient past of Ars Magica, at least as far back as 3rd edition (though the idea of Fast Casting against a hazard goes back even further). Back then, the level at which you could accomplish a given result was much more an issue of eyeballing; one did not have a well-specified baseline, to which one added a specific number of magnitudes for Target, Duration etc.

So the purpose of this text was to give a rough idea of how powerful a, say, ReCo spell should be to shove the target of a Pilum of Fire out of the way (back then, attacks such as Pilum of Fire were Aimed, so they could miss a sufficiently fast/agile target). The requirement of getting a sense of the TeFo combination used to attack you was based on the fact that, if you had to counter, say, The Call to Slumber rather than a Pilum of Fire, you'd use ReCo to snap yourself awake rather than to dodge the incoming fiery javelin.

I think that ArM5 (and before that ArM4), with its clearer and very precise guidelines -- while more friendly to beginners and perhaps more fun to "engineer" -- has actually lost something of the charm of those old editions, where you had to balance effects by feeling (so you'd never be able to immobilize, and keep immobilized, an opponent with strong MR under a large pile of clay with a mere Level 4 CrTe spell).

47

Wasn't Tremere's mmf in "defensive fast casting?" It was mentioned in either True Lineages or Against the Dark, alongside the hook that some harenarius try to replicate that focus. That focus should work for the original poster's question.

48

Dispelling the incoming spell can also work as a Fast Cast Defense

Perdo Vim defenses can work,
but they need to satisfy the normal rules
for dispelling magic (ArM5, page 160).
This becomes difficult if the defender
fails to identify the Form.
-- HoH:S p21

49

Sure. But what I am saying is that counterspelling can be significantly broader than dispelliing.

50

A "Fast-Cast Defense" if different from fast-casting a dispel, fast-casting an improvised spell defensively, or fast-casting a mastered spell defensively.

The first does not actually require a spell, just some TeFo combination that you have convinced the SG will work and high enough rolls. It is generally the easiest to design (just pick a combo) and the hardest to achieve (requiring a higher level).

For the second, this is best left for PeVi specialist but for such it is often the most effective. Determining what spell Form is being cast is very important but not always essential (you can use the Dispel any Guideline if powerful enough). This defense is easier against lower level spells and harder against higher level spells [Level/2 needed vs Level - (Mags and 1d10)]. YSMV on the required range, my group requires enough to reach the spell being cast. For Dimicatio this would be Voice (and what is used for the below examples). This method does have the advantage that if you are a little low, the (no botch) stress die can still get you there.

Example of 1st vs 2nd: Against a level 10 spell, the first would need to be level 5 while the second would need to be level 4 (100%). Against a level 20 spell, the first would need to be level 10 while the second would need to be level 10 (100%). Against a level 30 spell, the first would need to be level 15 while the second would need to be level 20 (100%). Taking into account the die roll, the cross over of which is more difficult thus happens somewhere between level 20 and level 30.

For the third and forth, you are attempting to disrupt the hostile caster's ability to target you with their spell rather than disrupt the spell. You need an actual "complete" spell (description and R/D/T), but if the spell is sufficient it does not have a minimum level/roll (beyond initiative and successful casting). A "wall" spell is the easiest design here, but if the spell cast at you is indirect or AC range then this type of defense has no chance of working.

The forth option is the easiest to cast (Formulaic, rarely if ever fatigues) and requires the most preparation (multiple seasons unless you have Flawless Magic, in which case it still requires part of one). YSMV but there is the possibility of Enchanted Items being able to do this with "Fast Trigger" (HoH:S, p.33).

My Magus has a CrTe wall spell (Level 5, Base 3, T/M/I, +1 Size) that he has Mastered with Fast Casting and Quick. It creates a curved wall of stone 4 paces wide, 2.5 paces high, and 1 pace thick. It breaks LoS, which allows it to prevent many spells from functioning if cast first.

Final note, for Dimicatio only the first two methods are allowed.

51

Do you have a page reference for this?

52

It's not quite what was remembered. It doesn't way it was a mMF, and it isn't specifically one in defensive fast casting. But the memory is close:

Some disputants claim that with sufficient mastery of certamen, they learn to mimic the magical focus of the Founder Tremere. They believe Tremere, hounded through his apprenticeship by his parens and brother, was skilled at defensive fast-casting when assailed with magic. (HoH:TL p.133)

4 Likes
53

HoH:MC has a major magical focus in "Counter-spelling". And yes, I think special circumstances is what I would use specifically otherwise for the fast-cast option.

3 Likes
54

GotF also as a Minor Magical Focus in Dispelling, which is very broad within PeVi but still less than all of PeVi so still valid as a Minor. (I'm pretty sure it includes reducing Might.) I think another book mentions it as well. Noting the Major Magical Focus, I would allow that to apply to MuVi or ReVi used as counter-magic as well as any counter-magic of the type described in those fast-cast defense rules.

1 Like
55

Was "dispelling" preventing a magic spell from being cast, or cancelling an already cast non-Momentary effect?

56

Thanks Callen! That was the passage, knew it had something to do with certamen.

57

Well, ArM5 uses "dispel" for both of those. What's more surprising is that this mMF in dispelling also applies to spells like DEO. Still, it's less than PeVi, so it clearly fits into mMF.

58

I did find a comment in HoH:S that specifies that fast-cast PeVi defenses must satisfy "the normal rules for dispelling magic" in Dimicatio. So, yes, it's pretty clear "dispelling" applies to such fast-cast defenses, more so than just the core guidelines. But that doesn't mean it applies to reducing casting totals (final general core PeVi guideline), which would also be a way for preventing a spell from being cast.

59

Thank you.
I am not entirely satisfied with that answer, but it is more due to my perceived ambiguity between the terms "counter-spelling" and "dis-spelling". Perhaps I should put it down as part of my Wish List for 6th Ed that these terms be better defined, including how they overlap and don't overlap.

60

That to me is where I would place things like MuVi to change targets, PeIg to cancel a CrIg, etc. under "counter-spelling" but not under "dispelling." But does "counter-spelling" include DEO? There may be overlap, or it could be that "dispelling" is a smaller-sized subset of "counter-spelling."