Path of ebb and flow

for discussion of the creation of an established Criamon path, based on the idea of the world being in fluctuation, always changing, and developing techniques to harness or ride that chaos.
Firs question to consider- and I would like your thoughts (anyone's thoughts) is how this approach would connect to the mainstream Criamon philosophy.

My idea has been that repose is found by becoming one with the flow, to cease resisting change. Man's struggle is the result of trying to remain constant in a change world; that's the source of all pain and stagnation.

I can't say that I have got mainstream Criamonism under my skin, but ... is that idea a part-way answer to your question?

The standard Criamon philosophy is that the change of the world occurs in a great cycle, with the goal of removing yourself from the world. The description you have seems contrary to that perspective...

One has to understand the cycle before one can break the cycle ... maybe.

That works.
So philosophically speaking (as opposed to assigning virtues and flaws) what do you see as the five stations of the path.

That was a hard one :slight_smile:
I'll think about it.

Just fragmented ideas at the moment,

  1. Avenue of Comprehending the flow
  2. Avenue of blending in [Gentle Gift]
  3. Avenue of flowing with the World [Self-Transformation and similar minor virtues]
  4. Direct the flow of the living
  5. Direct the flow of the elements

Are these something we can build on?

number 2 does not feel legitimate, but more like you chose a virtue and tried to design an avenue around it. I feel like the flow of the world should be the last station, not the third, and the ascribed virtues, which i specifically asked you not to include, do not fit.

Never mind the virtues, they were not the point. And no, it was the other way around, station first, and virtue afterwards in an attempt to elaborate. And no, you did not say to leave the virtues out, certainly not explicitly. You said to include the philosophical stations, which I did.

  1. Avenue of Comprehending the flow
  2. Avenue of blending in
  3. Direct the flow of the living
  4. Direct the flow of the elements
  5. Avenue of flowing with the World

Yes, I can see why you'd see the flow with the world as the last one.

I think the second still needs to be something else "blending in' may be tangentially related to flow but isn't really a part of it.

I think, maybe, you read more into the Flowing with the World which I did. As the last station I am thinking fusing with the world flow, as a previous station I was thinking a self flow so to speak. But I struggle to find good words.

  1. Avenue of Comprehending the flow
  2. Avenue of the Ever-Changing Self
  3. Direct the flow of the living
  4. Direct the flow of the elements
  5. Avenue of flowing with the World

Okay, so we start now with comprehending the flow- what would you see as a general outline for how this would be initiated, in descriptive rather than technical terms- I assume we aren't talking about simply sitting by a river in meditation...

Sitting in a river in meditation, maybe, but I think that may be more effective later on path, with a more advanced wanderer. Being carried by the river ... maybe a waterfall ... but I suppose those are few and far between in the Levant.

Visiting magic regione or parts of the magic realm, reincarnating past eras could be an option, maybe, if such magic reincarnations fit your cosmology. Possibly similar faerie reenactments, but that seems more controversial in spite of canon examples.

In the faerie realm one could experience peculiar flows of time ... could some insight be gained therefrom?

Undergoing a pivotal life change or crisis would be very suitable but hard to trigger on purpose.

so they have an option of either visiting a site and then a regio on that site which has trapped a version of it from the past, or both a site and then a faerie history of that same site? Add a quest of following a river from source to sea. Shall we add studying an ability which is no longer (generally) usefull (for example area lore from a bygone era) -essentially gaining the worthless abilities flaw (ordeal, minor flaw) by study.

The question is then whether this initiates premonitions (minor virtue) or potent magic (history), which would be major. Gven that the script bonus is +9, this would require an organization lore+presence of 11 for major virtue, in which case we may need to add more elements...

I'm pretty sure that by canon, all five stations of a Criamon Path must grant a major virtue, a bundle of 3 minors, or some special thing considered equivalent to a major. I could not find the reference that the pattern needs to be 5 majors or equivalent.

I have not seen the categorical statement, but every canon example I have seen is a major or triple minor.

I am not sure what Potent Magic (History) does, given that the past is beyond Hermetic limits ... could you clarify?

Premonition feels right, but I think it should be coupled with two more minors. Intuition, maybe?

I'll think more about it.

The past is beyond hermetic limits in general, but memories of the past are not- there is for example an ignem spell which reads the ashes of a campfire to see what happened while it burned. The ability to speak with various things (trees, rocks, etc) implies the ability to ask them about their memories. mentem reads memory pretty directly, and of course there are the aforementioned regios.

Let me see if I understand the script right.

  1. Quest (+3). Study a regio with a trapped past.
  2. Quest (+3). Follow a river from source to sea.
  3. Minor Ordeal (+3). Worthless Abilities

Is the Worthless Abilities flaw a canon flaw ... what does it really imply? I would think that studying a worthless ability is simply a sacrifice of time.

The first station typically entail Disfigured by Stigmata. Sometimes three minor flaws as one major ordeal.

It is canon from Grogs- it means you have 30 xp in an area that has been rendered useless by changes of time- examples are area lore for a ruined city (at it's height) or etiquette for an extinct or significantly transformed culture.
If it is standard lets find two more relevant minor flaws for the ordeal, then do three minor virtues for the initiation, first will be premonition, I'll take intuition, and one I've been keeping up my sleeve - past life recovery- you get 50 xp in abilities from a past life.

Would you consider premonitions by way of enigmatic wisdom as a double minor? There are several canon examples of enigmatic wisdom doubling to cover an other skill.

Otherwise, I do not mind Premonitions + Intuition + Past Life.

Worthless abilities is fine. Disfigurement, stigmata starting on the nose?

The third minor flaw. I was thinking of something which makes his magic less controlled, i.e. left, to a larger extent, to the chance directed by the flow. Possibly Loose Magic.

How long does this take?
Two seasons for two quests? Or can they be done in one? Plus whatever time it takes to aquire 30xp of worthless abilities?