(That alone stops few magi) 8)
I interpret "mindless husk" as including changing all ability point scores to zero. If you figure that is the case, how long is it going to take that person to learn to talk again, let alone know enough skills to be troublesome to the magus again?
A&A actually has a spell, The Clean Slate, using that very same guideline but with duration year. Here is the description:
So it seems that if the spell is Momentary:
- the character loses a lot of abilities (but not all), as well as every detail of his life; except that he will recognize familiar images as familiar, he just won't know anything about them.
- the character has no problem learning new things afterwards, even relearning things he once knew.
That's listed as Base 25? That makes no sense to me, none whatsoever. From "mindless husk" to that description, which only deals with "memory" afaics?... nope, sorry, don't buy it, not for a pfennig. 
If that's correct, if A&A is going to change things that radically, then "mindless husk" should be erratta'd out officially, because the two are just not compatible.
[i](Which is why I do not automatically bow down to every "example" in supplements as gospel, at least not at face value. If it jars against previous canon without explanation, I write it off as aberrant, at least until that clarification/explanation is made to my satisfaction. Yeah, I'm like that.)
I know A&A talks about some aspects of the mind not being affected, but at some point a powerful PeMe should be able to "destroy" the mind imo. Maybe higher than Base 25, but somewhere. Call it a houserule. )[/i]
I don't feel it's that different. With that AA spell you will be a "mindless husk" for the duration of the spell, in the same way that you would stay cold or weightless for the duration.
If you interpreted it as permanent, that you couldn't learn anything ever again, I agree it would be a big difference. But I find it hard to interpret that way.
Whether or not the target of such an effect can re-learn is irrelevant. It's the base effect that I'm questioning.
Merely "wiping the memory" does not leave "a mindless husk".
Retaining "language" and "recognition" - not to mention all other "General Abilities" - is directly contradictory with the very concept of "a mindless husk".
What that spell above describes is "complete amnesia" - which is a far cry from a "lights are on, but nobody's home" Base 25 RAW effect, which is what you get with "a mindless husk".
I don't know how the two can be rationalized as being non-contradictory. Beyond a dull discussion of what the words "mindless" and "husk" denote and connote in this context (which really should not be necessary - right?), all I can say is that I just don't see the above as anything near as severe as the canon Base 25 effect reads as written; in fact, the two are so far apart as to be a non-starter.
For what it is worth, I would say that a Momentary Duration Spell based on the PeMe 25 "leaves a person a mindless husk" guideline should do just that. It should put the person into a "permanent" vegetative state. Which given a lack of ICU should normally be fatal.
Having said that, I would also say that the target should have the opportunity to make some kind of (difficult) recovery roll. Perhaps a way to convert the damage into an Incapacitating Wound that can then be healed, with the additional condition that (if it is not fatal) the character is effectively unconscious until the Wound is completely healed.
I imagine it should be like severe brain trauma. The person is likely gone, but there is a slim chance of recovery.
So, I would make the spell as:
Curse of Hollow Life
PeMe 30
R: Eye, D: Momentary, T: Individual
This spell wipes the targets mind clean, leaving her a mindless husk. She is totally dependent on others to feed and care for her.
Every season, starting immediately, a STA roll is made for the character against an Ease Factor of 9. If this roll is successful she then treats the damage caused by this spell as an Incapacitating Wound which she can recover from (or not) normally. She does not regain consciousness until the Wound is totally healed.
(B: 25, R: Eye +1, D: Momentary, T: Individual)
I don't agree with that, for me zombies are mindless husks. With all their behaviors.
Moreover, I feel that a mind would naturally resets to that of a toddler (or some less-than-feral version thereof), in the same way that weight or body warmth returns naturally.
It all comes down to what your Mythic Europe believes is innate vs what is acquired. And in that sense, I would say that zombie behaviors are innate.
"Zombies" are supernatural creatures/effects. So, I don't think that is a good case for any sort of innate behaviour. "Supernatural" is literally the opposite of "innate".
Obviously as they are not real they can be anything you like, but in the usual concept, without the magic, a zombie would be ... a corpse.
Although, yes, a different spell built with the same guideline could make somebody a zombie. That is another reasonable valid way of expressing "mindless husk". Multiple effects can have the same guideline.
Yes, of course. Ok, better example of such behaviors: "mindless husk" is what Jack Nicholson becomes in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Is that too far above coma for you to accept this as a valid interpretation?
Where does your interpretation of "mindless husk" stops? Breathing, swallowing, staying on your feet or being led by the hand or squeezing something? Which of those would Mythic Europe consider purely physical?
And once the Duration is over, what part of the mind is innate and will come back?
Isn't that akin to asking what part of a persons face will come back once the Pe/Co "Destroy Face" duration is over...?
A - Yes and no - if we accept that A&A prohibits the "destruction" of some mental facilities by PeCo, then those are still intact. According to what we've heard above re A&A, then, unlike flesh and bone, some mental aspects are now beyond the reach of Hermetic magic. (If that's the case... my saga will vary.)
However, by the Core Book alone... it could go either way. Destroying "the mind" may not (necessarily) destroy the mind's ability to heal itself and regenerate - that much is not parallel to flesh and bone, or not clearly so.
So "ysmv" seems to be the guideword here.
That's called a "lobotomy", and, yes, that is closer to the usual concept of "mindless husk" (altho' what, exactly, is going on inside a lobotomized patient is a separate (and troubling) question).
So a "zombie" that stands motionless in a corner, waiting for simple orders from its master and then follows them without creativity is a mindless husk; a zombie that has cunning and ambushes its prey and finds back-doors past barricades and asks for "more brains" on the radio is not. A zombie with "a mindless hunger" is not (necessarily) a mindless husk.
So... (and I was really hoping this would not be necessary, but it seems it is...) ... let's all become clear on the term "mindless husk" before this goes any further.
A "husk" is, literally and metaphorically, an empty shell, with the emphasis on "empty". Something that once held value but has been emptied, has become useless, something to be discarded, something that has all the "worth" removed, leaving nothing inside of value - in whatever context the word "husk" is being used. So an army without ammunition could be "a husk" if it had no practical fighting ability remaining, even if it still had men and guns. Empty in context.
"Mindless" literally means "having no mind". In some contexts, this can mean "juvenile" or "intellectually lacking" - mindless cartoons, mindless distractions, mindless entertainment, mindless sports. "Mindless hunger" would thus be an unthinking desire for food, literally unaware of all else. But when coupled with the word "husk", it becomes more literal. The victim is now empty in the mental department, being "less one mind" - "now emptied of any useful/worthwhile mind". No thought, no reactions, no noticeable mental activity.
So, by the core guidelines, the target of a Base 25 PeMe loses "all" mental ability, or at least "enough" so that they appear empty, useless, without a mind. Which is far more crippling than "amnesia", and far less intellect than many "zombies" exhibit.
And, regardless of whether "recovery" or "relearning" is automatic or impossible, that is the starting point, even if it lasts only a moment.
That is a more complex question, and - apparently - depends on whether you own Arts & Academie and what exactly that supplement says on the subject.*
(* From what little we have had reported of A&A, above, it seems that re-learning starts immediately, and even "language" is not lost - which makes no sense to me, how a "mindless husk" can speak Latin - but that's my issue.)
But some starting points are clear, either way. Just as an adult has developed motor skills and coordination and reflexes that a newborn does not possess*, an adult victim of a base PeMe 25 effect should have more going for them than a newborn. That is, altho' "mindless", they should not be completely helpless. They may, indeed, be able to feed themselves (if food is presented to them), and walk around (if in complete non-comprehension of their surroundings), andso forth.
If they are truly "mindless", I would doubt that, at first, they know enough not to stick their hand in the fire, BUT they would know to pull it back, and they would learn not to after the first time - this much "learning", I think, is certainly possible.
(* and assuming these are not part of "the mind", the larger nervous system being a modern concept)
As for more advanced learning (like "trying ones shoes", much less "learning Latin"), it should certainly be no more difficult than with a child, and perhaps much faster - again, the adult's learning-tools should(?) still be there, if everything ever built by those tools is gone. However, short of A&A, if you want to say that it takes a magical CrMe to either heal the victim or to "jumpstart" them with some core memories/concepts, that makes perfect sense to me (and would be the direction I would lean in my own saga).
Isn't that akin to asking if a stone will can warm once the PeIg Duration is over?
That is the whole point: what is the innate, natural state and what is acquired.
The guidelines are intended to be read by the players (rather than the characters) so, they should be interpreted by what the players (i.e. 21st century people) "consider" and understand.
As far as I can see, all sorts of different interpretations of "mindless husk" should be valid. You and the other players know what the words can mean, there's no need to play definition games or for only one definition to be valid. For example, I think that both the following spells would be totally fine. I am quite sure that there are other valid spells too.
Curse of Hollow Life
PeMe 30
R: Eye, D: Momentary, T: Individual
This spell wipes the targets mind clean, leaving her a mindless husk. She is totally dependent on others to feed and care for her.
Every season, starting immediately, a STA roll is made for the character against an Ease Factor of 9. If this roll is successful she then treats the damage caused by this spell as an Incapacitating Wound which she can recover from (or not) normally. She does not regain consciousness until the Wound is totally healed.
(B: 25, +1 Eye)
Shambling Moon
PeMe 45
R: Touch, D:Moon, T:Individual
The target enters a mindless trance-like state. He can respond to gross external and internal stimuli, for example: attempting to retreat from pain, attempting to sleep when it is dark, and eat when hungry. However, the character cannot communicate, has no conception of self or others, and is incapable of planning or abstract thought. When the spell expires the target's mental faculties return and he has no recall of events that occurred while under the spell's effect.
(B:25, +1 Touch, +3 Moon)
IRM might resolve the "trouble", but yeah... 
We both agree that the vessel is empty.
The Perdo Mentem Guidelines on p 33, "naturally restore themselves." I conclude that the vessel is undamaged and can be filled again as opposed to a lobotomy. Had I known it was that quick a find I wouldn't have been lazy. 
Looking at AA and all this, I find it hard to say whether Abilities are memories or not. Will a shield grog recover with rest only, or will he have to learn to fight again?
I like your idea of using CrMe to help Recovery as if it was a wound, it is still far enough from Learn (Ability) rituals to be nice. EDIT: it fits nicely with Richard's spells too.
Hi,
The A&A section is intended to clarify that the low level PeMe guidelines for destroying individual memories or dampening emotions are supposed to affect content of one of the inner wits, not the faculty itself. So to take the example of Memory (which is clear in the core rules): Momentary Duration PeMe can clear out the memory leaving people unable to remember any stored memories; but the ability to remember things in the first place is protected by Essential Nature. Thus they can form new memories, although the old ones might never come back. The core rules suggest that memories do eventually return. If the Duration of the PeMe spell is extended, then the character cannot form new memories for the duration.
The other four inner wits don't work like memory -- they don't have a store of things that can be destroyed by a PeMe spell. The ability to think or plan, the response to primal needs, and the integration of sensory input (imagination, cognition, estimation/instinct, and common sense, respectively) are all processes that exist 'in the moment'. Thus to interrupt their working, the spell must have a Duration, much like a PeIm needs a Duration to constantly eliminate new species. These guidelines are relatively low level because again, they are not doing permanent damage, they are just stopping the inner wit from working.
All of this is different to the 25th level core guideline for "leave a person a mindless husk". This is direct damage to the faculty, much like a PeCo to cause a wound; just as the latter can remove a limb, the former can remove an inner wit. The core rules state that destroying emotions in this way requires a Duration, but memories can be destroyed permanently. A&A expands this to say that the other 3 inner wits work in the same way as estimation, in that a duration is necessary to maintain this effect. I believe this to be part of Essential Nature -- you can't get rid of a person's capacity to think, although you can stop them from thinking for the Duration.
It has been a fair while since I read the section in detail, but if I recall correctly, the section states that the new guidelines expand what Mentem spells can do in relation to the other wits (in general, only estimation and memory are covered in the core rules); but the new material does not replace and shouldn't contradict, the core rules in any way. If that is not clear in A&A, then I can only apologise.
Cheers,
Mark
Hi,
The A&A section is intended to clarify that the low level PeMe guidelines for destroying individual memories or dampening emotions are supposed to affect content of one of the inner wits, not the faculty itself. So to take the example of Memory (which is clear in the core rules): Momentary Duration PeMe can clear out the memory leaving people unable to remember any stored memories; but the ability to remember things in the first place is protected by Essential Nature. Thus they can form new memories, although the old ones might never come back. The core rules suggest that memories do eventually return. If the Duration of the PeMe spell is extended, then the character cannot form new memories for the duration.
The other four inner wits don't work like memory -- they don't have a store of things that can be destroyed by a PeMe spell. The ability to think or plan, the response to primal needs, and the integration of sensory input (imagination, cognition, estimation/instinct, and common sense, respectively) are all processes that exist 'in the moment'. Thus to interrupt their working, the spell must have a Duration, much like a PeIm needs a Duration to constantly eliminate new species. These guidelines are relatively low level because again, they are not doing permanent damage, they are just stopping the inner wit from working.
All of this is different to the 25th level core guideline for "leave a person a mindless husk". This is direct damage to the faculty, much like a PeCo to cause a wound; just as the latter can remove a limb, the former can remove an inner wit. The core rules state that destroying emotions in this way requires a Duration, but memories can be destroyed permanently. A&A expands this to say that the other 3 inner wits work in the same way as estimation, in that a duration is necessary to maintain this effect. I believe this to be part of Essential Nature -- you can't get rid of a person's capacity to think, although you can stop them from thinking for the Duration.
It has been a fair while since I read the section in detail, but if I recall correctly, the section states that the new guidelines expand what Mentem spells can do in relation to the other wits (in general, only estimation and memory are covered in the core rules); but the new material does not replace and shouldn't contradict, the core rules in any way. If that is not clear in A&A, then I can only apologise.
Cheers,
Mark
Thanks for answering Mark. 
If I read you correctly then the "mindless husk" is basically just reset to zero, and will recover. Further, there is no way to give someone a permanent "mentem lobotomy" with Hermatic Magic with the RAW. Correct?
A mage can always do it to themselves with a botch, but not to an opponent. 
I think the only "contradiction" comes from subjective expectation of what comes from "a mindless husk", and what that means for the long-term of that victim.
And while I join in thanking you for your explanation, I am still confused on the central point...
I must be misreading this - First you seem to say that Base 25 is "different" from mere removal of memory (the "lower level" effects discussed in your 1st 2 paragraphs) and "can remove an inner wit", using the analogy of amputation, but then you say that it's Essential Nature and so you can't get rid of one...
What I'm left with is the understanding that, unlike removing a limb (perhaps a bad analogy???), these "faculties" are not at all removed? It's closer to a "paralysis" of the limb than an amputation, right?
I'm left at a loss, then, as to what the "different" Level 25 effect does beyond erasing all memories. I suppose if you toss in the loss of most Abilities and a good portion of Personality (see below), that moves it to a different level of unpleasantness, but it still does not seem to meet the face-value definition of "mindless husk". Level 25 is "different" only in that it's operating against different facilities, not in that it can actually "damage" these facilities, but only repress them?
So "leave a person a mindless husk" is still more or less valid (in some sense), but the mind then begins to rebuild itself - or, rather, is immediately rebuilt, and memory/learning begins anew. That is, any and all memory is gone, but the tools of "The ability to think or plan, the response to primal needs, and the integration of sensory input (imagination, cognition, estimation/instinct, and common sense" are all intact (once Duration lapses).
If(?) that'st he case, I would expectc that, altho' the "ability" to do these things exists, their refinement does not. A master tactician could thus not "think and plan" to the same level, if only because they do not have any comprehension of the pieces on the metaphorical game-board, and they could not until they re-learn what those piece are (be they diplomats and kingdoms, military units and terrain, magi and The Code, or whatever). Likewise, altho' "imagination" is intact, an artist would be crippled by their lack of understanding of their medium - anything beyond "clay" would require a re-learning of the tools of creation and properties of the medium, etc.
It strikes me that any Personality Traits that are a result of environment (rather than Essential Nature) are also wiped clean, and thus much of the "personality" of the victim. So, if a person were "Angry +2" because their Parens treated them badly, that would be lost along with the memories of that Parens - but if they were "Noble +2" because they had Mythic Blood, that would be preserved.
Language would be out (but not the ability to relearn language), as would almost any Ability that relies on any set of "memories" or conscious judgement - which would be the majority of them*, and some small part of others with high Scores.
(* I might see Awareness surviving (mostly) intact, and Athletics (if it did not include any "performance" type abilities, such as a tumbling or juggling routine). Supernatural Abilities, also, would be beyond mere "memory", and so might survive unharmed. Things like Charm, Concentration, Folk Ken, Guile, Stealth - some elements are unconscious, but a large part can be very intentional tricks and judgements that do rely heavily on memory and conscious comparison and intentional strategies, and so might survive "in part" but not undiminished. Martial Abilities (and Brawling) may or may not be in this category as well - ymmv. Academic and Arcane Abilities would be a total loss(!), as would any General Ability that relies on "tricks" and technique rather than some innate, truly unconscious understanding.)
Base 25, for any TeFo, is powerful, and when applied in a damaging manner can be a game-ender for a character - and should be.
The implication is that NO Pe/Me can permanently gimp someones mind. No matter what level. It simply can't be done, because man's reason comes from his soul, and that is beyond the touch of Magic. Or somesuch.
Guess we need a breakthrough for this spell too.