I'm thought we were commissioning a statue from Praxiletes, and that I sent a letter to start RPing the discussion of what we'd like him to build.
Indeed you are. And what I'm doing, or what I have suggested is based around that. But now you want to know how it works for whatever you want to build/craft. So, I need to see some specifics from you on what you're doing and how we can develop the framework for it. You can move any reply to a more suitable thread. What I've described is probably going to work well for Praxiteles, but may not work at all for Viscaria or building a house/villa.
Well, as the RAW system stands, quality is determined by the EF you achieve.
Finesse-based EF are higher, but the core mechanism stays the same: If you ReTe a tunique, a low roll might give you a shoddy one, which will reflect badly on you, whereas a good roll means a finely crafted tunique that will impress people and give you a +1 on Charm rolls.
I see what you mean, I think. The artist engaing on some work of art, spending time on it...
I'd say 2 things:
- The RAW has no mechanism for this beyond the base "good total = great work of art" one, which, for most intents and purposes, works well (it implies that great artists usually do great work of arts)
- There is some flexibility in the durations involved. If 2 sculptors are making a statue and doing their best, the time they'll make will be similar, but the one made by the best sculptor will be just better. The corebook already assumes the craftsmen are taking their time to produce the best work possible, IIRC. I seem to recall a discussion about the difference in outlook between medieval and modern on this.
=> Yeah, handwave! 
I can do that. Going back to the drawing board.
Lemmesee… Ok, I got it. Warning: this is counterintuitive, but it works like you want, in a way.
We change nothing to the RAW rules when doing the work in an instant. You’re drawing on the realm of forms and all, this is fine, and the EF are insane anyway, so if you succeed, you’ve well earned it.
But when you begin to emulate mundane craftsmen more closely, your real skill and knowledge come to the fore, as you rely less and less on the realm of forms.
=>
When trying to take more time to lower your EF, you must succeed at an appropriate Int + Profession roll to plan the thing correctly. If you fail, you’re just not skilled enough to do this with that much detail, and must make more parts if the design "en masse", by letting the magic guide you, rather than your mundane skill. You quickly see if you're able to do this or not, so if you lose, it takes not much time (at most 1 week for a year-long project), but if you succeed, the plans, reflexion and schematics you do are part of the time required by the project.
You must roll an appropriate Int + Profession against the Base EF (not modified for Rego or anything else) of the work you’re attempting.
- If you succeed, you can do it with any time dilation you want.
- If you fail by 3 or less, you can slow down by 2 steps (ex: doing a year’s work in a season)
- If you fail by 6 or less, you can slow down by 1 steps (ex: doing a year’s work in a month)
- If you fail by more, you’re just not skilled enough to attempt this work as a mundane craftsman, and must rely on the RAW and the Realm of Forms.
EF is by Covenants p49
- 3 for Rego Magic
- 3 if the mundane craft would use many temporary substances to process the work. This can be eliminated if the Magus has the needed substances, and succeeds an appropriate Craft roll of EF - 6, save for instant craft magic, where you can't do this.
+9 EF: Doing a Year's work in an instant
+6 EF: Doing a season's work in an instant. Doing a year's work in a month
+3 EF: Doing a season's work in a month. Doing a year's work in a season
+0 EF: Doing a season's work in a season, a year's work in a year, a month's work in a month.
If "going slower", the Finesse skill is limited to [Appropriate Craft skill + 2 + (Time modifier)/3]. Combined with the Prof roll above, this ensures that only those that have some knowledge of the appropriate craft can do efficient work.
Exemply Gratia:
[i]- Viscaria wants to create a magnificent tower, with much details and particularities. She has Int +3, Dex -1, Finesse (Rego*) 4, Prof: Architect 3, Craft: Stone 2
- Due to the complexity, the task is Hard: base EF is 12, +3 for Rego = 15. This would take a year, for a final EF of 21 + 9 = 30.
This is really difficult, so she wants to stick as close as possible to mundane craft, in order to lower the final difficulty. She must succeed a Prof: Architect roll of EF 12 for that. If she rolls 9-11, the design is too much for her skills, she has to take shortcuts through the realm of forms and can't go slower than a season. If she rolls 6-8, she can design the rough outlines, but is at a loss for most things, so can't take more than a month to do it. Lower? She has to do it in one go, crafting the tower in an instant. - She rolls a 14, and can go on. She could do it in a year, but will try to go for a season. This adds +3 to the EF, which goes to 18.[/i]
Nope.
This would mean that starting over would be easier than salvaging a mess. I don't want this.
If you botched, sure, there's nothing to do (the foundations are a mess, the statue broken in 2...). Else, you can roll the base (mundane) EF using any appropriate Craft skill. If you succeed, you get +1 on your next roll for the same project, if working from the remnants of your failed attempts.
Why +1 and not +3? Because it would mean that going for a month/season and failing 3 times gives you the same difficulty that if you had tried for a season/year in the first time, which is already generous enough IMO.
Very good remark. So we can go and see what it would take for her
Just to throw the obvious into this discussion, I saw somewhere in another thread this phrase "Roll Per+Finesse, vs EF 12 - Craft." I think Peregrine may have said it to somebody. It was late and I was using the forum as bedtime reading.
Maybe we're overthinking this? What about simply subtracting up to all relevant Prof and Craft skills from the EF? (I suggest all Relevant ones because I think that skills are underutilitized in the system relative to cost. I would also be fine with up to one Prof and one Craft skill.)
Exemply Gratia:
- Viscaria wants to create a magnificent tower, with much details and particularities. She has Int +3, Dex -1, Per 0, Finesse (Rego*) 4, Prof: Architect 3, Craft: Stone 2
- Due to the complexity, the task is Hard: base EF is 12, +3 for Rego = 15. This would take a year, for a final EF of 21 + 9 = 30
- Her knowledge of mundane craftsmanship and structural engineering her. EF 15 - Prof:A 3 - Craft:Stone 2 = 10 to do a year's worth of work in a year.
- She must roll to avoid the +3 penalty for not including intermediate materials, as before.
- She wishes to go faster than that, and could attempt to do a year's worth of work in a season at EF 13, or a month (EF16), or even in a day (EF19).
As we've appointed system design to you, and I'm just adding input, then I'm fine with messes being easier than starting from scratch, even if it does go against my mundane experience.
Fixer, could you react to my suggested complexities and mundane-required-times in the OOC Tribunal Field thread?
Judging purely by the looks, I love it. Mechanics-wise, not so much 
The problem I have with this is simple. If the sum of relevant skills is 4 or more, it means Rego Craft magic is, all things being equal, more efficient than mundane work. And the more skilled you are, the worse it gets.
It also become becomes better than Creo Magic, which I don't like.
There's an added problem, too. This lowered EF will mean that Rego Craft magi will better items.
And these are things I've tried very hard to avoid :-/
The problem is for my formulation for Prof: Architect, isn't it?
How about this:
Roll Int + Profession against (Base EF - 9). Each 3 points of success allow you to diminish the "Time EF" by 3 (min 0), if also following the time constraints below:
+9 EF: Doing a Year's work in an instant
+6 EF: Doing a season's work in an instant. Doing a year's work in a month
+3 EF: Doing a month's work in an instant. Doing a season's work in a month. Doing a year's work in a season
+0 EF: Doing a Day's work in an instant. Doing a month's work in a month, a season's work in a season, a year's work in a year.
I like your previous iteration better than the one you just suggested, in terms of creating an effective flavor. At this point, I'm solely looking for ways to streamline the mathematics. I actually like the Fail By X factor in the Profession roll because it mirrors the success system of Rituals.
Fractional value of the skills? Average of the skills? I would argue that a magus who has spent 100 xp on abilities plus Finesse plus Rego and related Forms plus spending time in lab developing the spells should be damn good at it. I mean, these abilities aren't generally useful the way spending points on AL and Philo would be.
Hum... Thing is, as it is, the skills are already useful.
Without a good enough Prof: Architect, you can't to the more complex projects "step by step", and more and more have to do it in one go, with the insane EF that entails.
Likewise, without a good enough Craft skill, your finesse is limited.
Of course, the numbers can be adjusted to make them less or more of a requisite (+/- 3 to the Profession EF, +/- 1 to the Finesse ceiling)
And yes, a magus who spends time developing Finesse and all will be good at it. And at everything.
Of course, XP by XP, a blacksmith will be better at what he does than the magus. But the magus will be able to do the simpler works faster, sometimes in an instant, if he doesn't seek excellent or better quality.
But the magus will also be able to stand in for the tailor, the shipwright, the mason, the spinner, the bookbinder the glassblower, the cook, and what have you. If you have mundanes skilled in Finesse, with appropriate items... You win! 
Anyway, I'm of the impression that the Rego Craft rules are there to allow most magi to do simple, usable items, those done in a day, maybe those done in a month but no more, so as the covenants still need mundane workers (or vis! Always the big tradeof) to do the work and can’t rely on a few Rego spells cast here and there
With Viscaria returned to Phoenix (and Amul in apparent retirement, as he's not been on since just before Christmas), I'm at a loss as to who can work on the project. Does Fiona know any other Verditius?
Well, I don't believe it has to be a Verditius, unless it's to achieve cost savings of vis, or the size of the device and opening it for enchantment limits.
Also, Viscaria isn't unavailable, but she is more difficult to get to, and may have some different requirements than she did before, and I can run her as an NPC.
If you need another magus to do the work, let's consider the work you are trying to get done:
- Prepare item for enchantment --> needs a high score in Magic Theory.
- Base effect to animate the statue --> a decently high lab total in ReTe, with possibly some requisites thrown in.
Do the magi of Mons Electi know someone with those capabilities? 