Sure, if there's a queue of customers available whenever the PC wants. Not so much if Bob the Archmage has spend decades polishing his skills and is in the middle of something important when Tom the Magus appears and needs an longevity potion NOW!
That situation can actually be incredibly viable to a PC too, but in an individualized context of connections, favors, obligations, prestige, etc. Not as a market situation as is sometimes imagined.
PCs are often busy doing stuff, stuff that's interesting and exciting, because that's what the players want. They also tend to have disposable income, and SGs like to see them dispose of it in suboptimal ways. A Longevity Ritual, from the player perspective, may not be the best use of vis. So, it's easy, as an SG, to dangle the prospect of a Longevity Ritual specialist, selling his services for making +20 longevity rituals (with the assistance of the magus), and plenty of vis.
As a player, I have a character who is good at Longevity Rituals, though he's not great, and his advancement since gauntlet (9 years previous) has seen very little movement in his CrCo lab total. He started out being able to make LR +10 (+11, if he adds an extra pawn of vis) and he can make LR +12 by himself, now. He's made 5 longevity rituals in those 9 years, one for himself, two for sale to Redcaps (he's a kinda/sorta illegitimate Mercere, so he's expected to do it for the benefit of the House), and two for members of the covenant (PCs). I've made en effort to not be a longevity ritual lab rat. I haven't invested a lot of time in improving the relevant Arts and Abilities. His Corpus improved so he could write a summa. He's a teacher (Magister in Artibus, Gentle Gift), and until he was forced to take an apprentice had planned to teach at the University for many years. He's spent more time teaching than he has doing the Longevity Ritual thing, and I don't really expect that to change. He's also a Good Teacher, so he has some huge potential to be a vis making machine, too. I've made some active choices, as a player, to not have him write or make longevity rituals, except the ones he must, and have him doing other things, instead. Eventually the House will step in, as they did for him taking an apprentice, and force him to make a few over the last few years he has an apprentice...
Speaking from the player perspective, I find the Longevity ritual specialist, and Verditius who sells his items to be rather boring concepts. They end up "working" far too much. At the beginning of their career, they probably spend half their seasons improving Arts and/or in the production end of their "business." A Verditius is probably always spending two seasons per year, in service of their business. A Longevity Ritual specialist doesn't require nearly as much time investment, but they also might be a lot busier with actual business, especially later in life. They can certainly become vis making machines, but then what do they do with that accumulated wealth? What happens when a buyer comes by, wants the services, but the player doesn't want to have his character occupied for that particular season or seasons, in the case of making an item? This is where I find the cooperative Order, selling services to other magi doesn't make a whole lot of sense. From the SG's side of things, you have a character who is accumulating wealth at a greater rate than the other PCs, unless they are very involved in the Hermetic trade (writing and selling books). It creates this unequal situation which can be a challenge to deal with, especially in PbPs where the players don't know each other, and they see bonuses accruing to other characters at a greater rate than their own, not realizing the investment involved.
Speaking to jebrick's point, I didn't want to create an environment where all Korvin was doing was making Longevity rituals, I guess it wasn't clear to me that it was an expectation that a lot of the character's time would be for that particular purpose, because my own bias got in the way thinking it was boring.
Hi,
This is exactly why PCs tend to be consumers rather than producers. GMs are not likely to let PCs benefit much, and are more likely to adopt the tactics you suggest; it's an instinctive thing, really, trying to tack a story flaw onto anything that does not have an explicit game mechanic.
Anyway,
Ken
IMO, PCs tend to be consumers rather than producers because there's so much other stuff to do. Speaking as someone who is actively playing a character that can produce longevity rituals right now, the idea that he spends two seasons a year advancing his arts or making a longevity ritual isn't really appealing.
The situation is inherently unpredictable and calls for a story resolution, not some mechanical market model.
Consider you've got:
a.) An older magus with almost unique experience. Nobody plans on buying their LR from a run of the mill craftsman wizard.
b.) With his own interests and activities. Archmagi don't just live to accumulate stocks of wealth for its own sake. Oh, and he's probably a bit weird from decades of warping. Who knows what he wants to do this season? That applies to players and NPCs.
c.) Demand that occurs at random times. Nobody knows when they're going to need a new LR but when it happens they want it right away.
d.) The possibility of really pissing off powerful people if you turn them down or accept work for another magus first. These powerful people may not have much to lose if ageing is out of control. They're probably pretty weird from their own warping by now too.
This looks very much like a story to me. Not necessarily a flaw - there are good opportunities for the LR brewer if he hands it right. It's certainly not like working a job or even manufacturing a commodity like a saddles or candles.
I've always assumed that in any RPG, the players are the special ones. I consider this the case even in ArM where magi are already the special ones. PC magi are special among the special.
Consider a pulp game. Some people (the PCs) are going to be out there fighting Nazis and looking for the lost Arc of the Covenant; others (the NPCs) are going to be sitting in their libraries serving as a resource for the PCs.
How about a high fantasy game? Some people (the PCs) will be out there fighting monsters and exploring ruins. Others (the NPCs) will be serving as sages and hirelings, making magic items and performing other support roles.
So too in ArM. Some people (the PCs) are the magi that are out there having adventures. Others (the NPCs) are content to do their research in their ivory towers, occasionally selling a LR or a magic item to make ends meet and to allow them that cushy lifestyle.
This is true even in the real world. Most of us live fairly pedestrian lives, working in offices or the like, providing the services that others need. It's the rare few that jump out of planes to fight fires, serve as Navy Seals, or fly into space.
Yes, the NPCs live simpler, not as adventurous lives. But it hardly makes them unimaginable or faceless. They just don't have that spark that makes someone willing to put their life on the line for adventure.
Hi,
I didn't say this approach is wrong.
I am saying that this approach makes the character type extremely unattractive to a PC, because of the way games tend to be run.
a) If you're an expert, people will still come to you. This argument is like saying that there's only room for one magus in House Verditius. There are many reasons why lesser experts get business. Not everyone goes to the best surgeon in the world! And if you have Af/Pu in both CrCo, if you have high scores, a focus, a good lab and a decent familiar, you're already not run-of-the-mill. Of course, many GMs are likely to look at the PC and simply create better NPCs; therefore, PCs are not likely to take this route. NPCs do not have this problem!
b) The provider can ask for vis, or items, or time. Of course, GMs tend not to offer vis when PCs want vis, not to offer items when they want items, etc, because need generates stories. Therefore, PCs are not likely to take this route. NPCs do not have this problem.
c) Much like a doctor, a LR expert can schedule an appointment: Come back next spring; I am engaged this autumn. Or can charge them extra for the inconvenience. Of course, if a PC tries this, the GM will give him an enemy or some other problem. Most of the time, someone in need of an LR knows exactly when he needs it: Age 35. Most of the rest of the time, someone in need of an LR can just get a new one, before the old one expires. But if you're a PC, all of your clients will be special needs. Therefore, PCs are not likely to take this route.
d) This is exactly what will happen if you are a PC.
So there's no wonder that all the PCs in your games (as in most games) decide to be consumers. Never mind that if PCs are representative, just as they don't torment NPC LP experts, so too the vast majority of NPC consumers will behave similarly. Never mind that if the PCs tend to pay for a good LR, NPCs will too, and there will be a good business providing these, even for PC providers.
Again, I'm not saying that the non-level playing field is wrong. It is very common, because it works well. Some games encapsulate this kind of economy with simple rules, such as D&D4's magic item economy. Crazily unrealistic, but the rules support the kind of stories the game wants to support.
Anyway,
Ken
It was a trap that I did not realize until later. A Mercere who is good at something is suppose to server the Redcaps. Korvin, who was very good at LR, could have been doing 3 LR per year for Redcaps had JL not guided the story away from the Redcaps. A magus of almost any other House would be much more free to take those big commissions from Arch Magi. A Mercere will be doing a lot of for the Redcaps.
The True Lineages book doesn't give magi Mercere any specific requirements other than the House sort of being ashamed of their magic, hence the no-voting and spend-a-septannual-season-as-a-Redcap "suggestions." Many magi Mercere focus on doing what they want. They're not Bonisagi or Tremeres, and even Tremere magi don't expect to spend more than a season a year in House service (which they get paid for). Furthermore, House Mercere has more vis than it knows what to do with - it should easily be able to hire outsiders. In fact, if your magus was that good at LRs, he should focus on taking big commissions for archmagi and broker Redcap's First LR to another Longevity specialist down the food chain. (Being asked to do something for the Redcaps is a privilege and honor for any magus! Well, unless it's a fine being levied by Tribunal.)
Also, seriously, are three redcaps turning 35 every year?
Also, "consumer" or not, any experienced magus is likely to have a niche that other magi will consult him on, which will spawn stories. A known Venatrix will be on the Quaesitores' speed-dial if there's a demonic problem. Mercurians keep in contact with one another because they want each other available to help with really big rituals (which are going to botch in an interesting fashion, because they're really big rituals). A Flambeau will be informed of Wizard's Marches in the area and politely asked to participate. And any of these can be just as easily enforced by a 180-year-old archmagus who demands that the magi drop whatever they're doing and get involved right now, and refuse to pay you in the currency you ask for, as "I need a Longevity Ritual right now because my last one failed!" (However, doing something like that more than, um, once a saga is really bad storyguiding, IMO, unless your Order of Hermes is actually the Camarilla in disguise. .)
If SGs are more likely to drop this sort of thing on infrastructural producer types (the covenant's Verditius, the longevity specialist, the Mercurian Terrae-Magus with a Focus in creating stone) than on anyone else, then that's something that should be addressed with the troupe.
Assist, not serve. Mercere Magi get the pick of Redcap commissions, meaning that if they want to do the work, they don't have to compete for it. Making stuff for Redcaps doesn't pay that great (IIRC lab total divided by 10 in vis?) but at least the Redcaps can probably pay in the vis you want, and you get a nice lab text for something useful you can re-create later for extra profit.
Basically, a redcap looking for a LR will ask a Mercere first but understand if they're otherwise busy. In any tribunal, there's likely only 1 gifted Mercere and a dozen redcaps, so the requests for LR are going to be in the order of one every decade (accounting for how redcaps live longer and thus work for the Order longer than normal folk, so they train fewer replacements over time).
ArM is kind of an exception here, as even PCs usually seem as focused on their downtime activities as they are on adventures and story plots. PCs always seem to have something they'd rather do with a free season than to work for someone else in return for pay. I have trouble picturing a magus who actually wants to spend three seasons a year cooking up LRs for Redcaps.
There are exceptions. A Verditius usually enjoys crafting magic items and that takes lots and lots of vis, so making items for pay comes naturally. Even here though the transactions are more interesting when considered as part of a web of favors and obligations than as a simple marketplace.
I can agree with that. It would be odd to see a magus willingly spending three seasons a year doing grunt work. But a magus who's willing to spend one season a year cooking up LRs or making magic items in exchange for payment is perfectly believable to me (maybe even two seasons on occasion). Not every covenant is rich in money or vis. And most of the things that a magus wants to do require one or the other or both. I've played in a saga where we were from a very poor covenant. And while I had plenty of things I wanted to do, I couldn't do a great number of them for lack of resources. I'd have killed for a chance to cook up a LR for cash or vis. It would have allowed me to do the things I wanted in my other seasons.
If I wanted to bind a familiar, that's 6-8 vis right there, not counting any abilities I might want to instill into the familiar bond. A Talisman is another chunk of vis right there. Making magic items for my own use is yet another vis sink. All these are easy when you have a bunch of vis sources to tap. But if you don't, then hiring yourself out is the next best thing (so long as you can beat the return on distilling vis from your local Aura).
In fact, distilling vis from the Aura is a good example of something that no magus wants to spend a season doing, but some will do when they need the vis. So too any other vis-gaining activity (like devising LRs or making magic items) that can compete with distilling vis.
I never said that magi would eagerly pursue those options. But I have to believe that there are at least a handful of magi in the Order who would be more than happy to perform those services some of the time for the return they give.
That's also not counting the Mercere magi who probably get the loyalty card played to get them to give up the occasional season. Oh, sure, they get paid. But as you say, that might not be enough, on its own, to convince them. But adding a plea to their loyalty in addition to payment just might.
I do not remember when or why I said that. But someone liked my defending saying that and it shocked me. For whatever reason I said that, I regret and recant my words.