Question: What would be the additional cost, if any, we I to take a lab text for a spell that was researched by someone else in my own area of research (portals)? So in addition to allowing me to learn that spell described, it would count for points in my area of research.
I figured that it would make sense to have one such lab text, dug up from a dusty library (maybe Durenmar). It would give him a (small) head start in his research and would probably be in a Te+Fo+Lvl combination that he cannot learn right away -- something of an intermediate goal in his research.
I split this off from the Covenant's group, because it opens more questions related to original research (OR) than covenants.
I haven't had to make use of the OR rules, yet. It was my hope that the two participants doing OR could kind of watch over the process for the other person and I'd just be tangentially involved, an observer, and maybe an adjudicator or independent third party. I can look at some of the rules again, possibly this evening and break it down into that framework. I think I need to have a clearer idea of his research plan to be able to answer the question asked. Now, if you wanted to bring a spell that uses the ReTe guideline outlined in Magi of Hermes on page 92 as a basis for your portal research, that's relatively easy to adjudicate. Create the spell and text and go from there. And, IMO, I'd rather you have something to work from right away than to have to work towards something you're bringing with you. If you want to work towards something, that's what making a story is for. A researcher in an unrelated topic unearthed a musty old tome talking about transporting objects from place to place and thinks you should take a look at it, but he's difficult to get to or something!
Something key to this discussion, why would portals be better? I think it requires, any teleportation effect requires casting requisites of the appropriate form. But portals somehow bypass this limit (they aren't mentioned in Hermes or Mercere Portals, everything gets transported, but yes they are high level, but their base isn't fully detailed, either). In some sagas I handwave needing requisites for fun. In this environment, I think it's more important that that the requisites are necessary since we have someone researching along that line. This makes a spells like the Leap of Homecoming and The Seven League Stride more challenging to cast effectively, but leaves a defensive spell like Wizard's Leap still within almost everyone's casting reach (might cause fatigue). Does that seem like a reasonable starting point for discussion?
In short, each research is assigned a degree of difficulty based on their nature: Minor, Major or Hermetic Breakthrough. In this case I think it would be a Major, since removing requisites for teleportation spells (even if only through portals) is stretching Hermetic magic without breaking any of the limits of magic.
Once the nature of the breakthrough is established, the SG assigns a target to be reached to achieve the breakthrough. Suggested numbers IIRC are 30 for Minor, 45 for Major and 60 for Hermetic. This target number is kept secret from the player, so that he doesn't know how much more research is needed. In our case, it would probably the troupe's job (or a subset of the troupe) to determine that target number.
Next, the research begins. The magus must invent effects (either spells or items) that relate in some way to the subject. Each effect must be essentially invented twice, using the Experimentation rules. The first time you must get a specific result in the experimentation chart. The second time, using the exact same parameters, he must invent the effect without any negative result on the experimentation. I haven't run the numbers, but it looks to me like you have about 1 in 10 chance of any specific experiment to yield results useful to your research (aside from the effect itself).
Every time you succeed in an experiment, you accumulate its magnitude in points towards your research (this may also involve getting some warping). When you accumulate enough points to reach the target number, you achieve a breakthrough.
You can use other people's research by using one of their lab text describing a successful experiment. You may have to break their code if they haven't translated their notes, but essentially its simply learning learning the spell or enchanting the item described in the lab text. You gain a number of points equal to the magnitude of the effect, with no chance of warping.
Having a lab text that describe one such experiment right at the beginning of the game gives a small advantage, and encourages the character to look for more such texts in the future. The lab text is still useful for the spell it describes, it just has an additional use as part of the research.
Yep, that pretty much summarize it. All teleportation effect in Hermetic Magic requires casting requisites for the Form of the target (including items carried). The only exception to this is Hermes Portal, a Mercurian ritual, which allows transportation of anything using ReTe alone. Furthermore, it is a high-level magical effect that causes no warping to those crossing it (to be confirmed), and is not blocked by magical resistance (also to be confirmed).
Petronius’ theory is that HP does not really teleports what goes through it, but uses ReTe to “link” the two locations. Expanding the basis for HP to a more generalized theory of portal magic would allow the magus to create such links between two target locations, allowing movement between the two locations. The target of the magic would not be who or what is crossing the portals, but the locations themselves.
So his areas of experiment will be spells that teleport objects and beings from one location to another. Technique will be almost exclusively Rego, along with a variety of Forms (solids, living things, magic, liquids, gas and even possibly light/heat/images/spirits)
I've always believed that Hermes Portal (and Mercere) warps the specific points it connects, not that it doesn't violate the limit of warping. The Target is Ind, which I take to mean some specific spot of Earth. I also believe that Ball of Abysmal Flame and The Incantation of Lightning do not inflict warping on the "target" since the target is actually fire or lightning that was created and directed to go at it. It is a fine distinction, and if it needs a HR for clarification, sure.
Consequently, The Seven League Stride and Leap of Homecoming since they are created to affect the caster do not cause warping on the caster, but there is room for debate that they may cause warping on items needing casting requisites....
But a Touch version of those spells, or an enchanted item doing the same, would cause warping to the target unless specifically designed for that target. Something that HP does not do, making it superior to those spells. (I can just hear my character pontificating about this! )
175 BP for common resources, and 50 BP for private resources.
That's in the Covenant Discussion thread. Things have not been finalized on that front, and I don't know if we'll have a seperate thread for this when it is.
One of the things I bought for Petronius using his personal build points is a lab text for a variant of the spell Invisible Hand of the Thief which is relevant to his portal research. I figured I should determine what makes this variant special, so here goes.
The spell was invented by Horatius, a Verditius of the Tribunal of Rome who passed into Final Twilight in 1159AD. His filius sent his collection of lab notes and other texts to Durenmar, after by his filius.
Horatius had begun some research into the creation of items that could contain more on the inside than their outside volume allowed, using interdimensional pockets. A spell was investigated to send the target item such a container smaller than the item itself, where it could later be retrieved. The results were not quite as hoped, but provided insights into the nature of space itself.
Horatius had a Magic Theory of 7 when he invented this spell. He used a Risk Modifier of +2 and can adjust the Discovery roll by up to 2.
Season 1: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 6 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 8 (Complete Failure). No discovery possible.
Season 2: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 6 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 8 (Complete Failure). No discovery possible.
Season 3: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 3 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 5 (Side Effect). No discovery.
Season 4: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 6 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 8 (Complete Failure). No discovery possible.
Season 5: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 4 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 6 (Side Effect). No discovery.
Season 6: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 5 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 7 (No Benefit). No discovery .
Season 7: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 6 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 8 (Complete Failure). No discovery possible.
Season 8: The roll on the Extraordinary Results Chart was 9 (stress die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 11 (Modified Effect). A discovery is achieved by applying -1 to the result.
The roll for the Modified Effect is 10 (die) + 2 (Risk Modifier) = 12 (The actual effect of your experiment is changed completely, save that the relevant Technique and Form remain unchanged, and the level remain similar.)
Season 9: Stabilization roll of 0 (stress die, no botch) + 2 (Risk Modifier) -1 (Discovery Modifier) = 1 (No extraordinary result). Discovery stabilized.
Modified Effect could be: Instead of sending the target item such a container, the spell translocates the item so that appears in the air front of the caster. And, although the item disappears instantly when the spell is cast, it takes a few seconds before it reappears (i.e. on the following round). A Qik + Legerdemain roll against an Ease Factor of 6 is required to snatch the item out of the air when it reappears, or it simply falls to the ground.
Horatius, the inventor of this spell, theorized that the item was being sent to the Magic Realm before being ejected back ininto the mundane world in front of the caster. This seems supported by the fact that successive castings of this spell cause Warping to the object, even though it is not powerful enough to normally have such an effect.
I had to re-read this a couple of times to get is straight. I'm thinking the target of the spell is an object, which the spell attempts to stuff into a container that would otherwise be too small. But the spell does not work as intended, and instead, the object is transported into the Magic Realm and back again. Do I have it right?
Why does the location where the object reappears change? I would say the Invisible Hand part tries to put the item somewhere it does not belong, so the item is transported "elsewhere" for a duration. It seems like it should reappear exactly where it was before, unless something in the Magic Realm moves it in which case it could appear almost anywhere. Also, the duration of a round seems un-Hermetic; I would use either Momentary (in which case the object "flickers" in place) with the advantage that it is less likely be moved in the Magic Realm, or Diameter, in which case there is some chance of it being moved.
Well, initially I had thoughts that the Horatius had been trying to experiment on Invisible Hand of the Thief (IHofT)) itself as a way of investigating it relationship with his so-called pocket spaces. But then (after many unsuccessful experimentation rolls), I got a "Modified Effect" result of 12, that states that the end spell is completely different than what was being sought. Since I am basically retro-making the final result (which is a variant of IHotT), I decided to change what he was seeking originally instead of completely restarting the process a second time. I would not do that if the research was Petronius' own, but in this case we already know the result (a variant of IHotT) so I decided to tweak things a bit.
The roll of 12 for Modified Effect means the spell is completely different, except for the Te+Fo which remain the same, and the level remains similar. So he was trying to get a "Bag of Holding" kind of spell, but he got a querky IHotT-like spell instead. Having some un-Hermetic effect as a result of experimentation (like the duration of the delay) is not something that should be surprising.
Maybe I should not have change the initial premise of the experimentation and have Horatius actually experimenting on IHotT. But I figured that was a good reason for why none of his other research was relevant to Petronius' portal research.
I'm open to a different variant of IHotH, but the spell should still be useful. If the object just flickers in place, this almost completely cripples the spell, and it doesn't seem relevant at all to portal research.
Your suggestion that "something in the Magic Realm moves it" is a possibility, but that by no means that the "something" is aware. If it's some kind of current (like a mud-slide), the movement would be predictable between the 2 points, even if the speed isn't. It could be that the delay is a stress die in seconds, and on a botch the object never reappears (it missed the exit point).
Finalizing the details of the spell, and renaming it to avoid confusion.
The Purloined Object (ReTe 20)
R:Voice, D:Mom, T:Ind
Transports any single object to the caster. The object must be within range and and visible to the caster. Objects that are being held or worn are affected by this spell, and may need casting requisites for material other than that covered by the Form of Terram (for example, Animal for wool, leather, bone or ivory). If the target is protected by Magic Resistance, the spell must have sufficient Penetration.
This spell is the result of experimentation, and has several quirks. Although the object disappears instantly, its reappearance is delayed and occasionally it doesn't reappear at all. (Roll a stress die: this is the number of seconds the object takes to reappear; a Botch or a result above Diameter indicates that the object is lost.) When it reappears, the object does so in front of the caster at chest level. A Qik + Legerdemain roll against an Ease Factor of 6 is required to snatch it out of the air before it falls down. Strangely enough, the object reappears in front of the caster no matter how far he's travelled since casting the spell.
The inventor of this spell, Horatius of Verditius, accidently invented this spell (which is essentially a variant of Invisible Hand of the Thief) while trying to do something else completely (he was performing research on what he called "pocket spaces"). In his lab notes, Horatius theorized that the spell creates a conduit that goes through the Magic Realm, where the object drifts for some time before getting to the caster. This conduit forms a temporary Arcane Connection to the caster, which explains why the object's exit point follows the caster around.
A potential spell that could be invented as part of Petronius' original research. He's nowhere near ready to start on this one, but I figure it may be work discussing in advance. Not the most efficient way of doing this, but of course that's not the point of original research.
Circle of Abundant Sunlight (ReIg 30)
R: Arc, D: Diam, T:Part
By tracing a ring on a surface, the caster transports natural light and heat of the sun shining upon a location to which he has an Arcane Connection, provided it is within 5 paces, so that they now shine through the ring. On that remote location, a patch of the same shape and size as the traced ring appears dark and cool to the touch, as the light and heat are transported away. Any increase or decrease in the light or heat at the remote spot, due to less sunlight shining on the location, are reflected in the amount of light and heat shining from the ring. This may be due to the position of the sun, clouds obscuring it, or even the shadow of an object or creature blocking parts of the location.
(Base 4, +4 Arc, +1 Diam, +1 Part)
Lab Total: Rego (11) + Ignem (0) + Focus (0) + Int (3) + Magic Theory (7) + Inventive Genius (3) = 24. The aura, the lab bonuses, and the benefits of experimentation would be added to his lab total. He'll want to increase his Ignem score by quite a bit before he begins investigating this effect (due to his magical focus, any point added to his Ignem score increases his lab total by 2).
Notes:
Using the Base 4 of the ReTe guidelines from MoH (p.92) for transporting a target up to 5 paces.
Since this is a portal research project, Petronius used the minimum Base and Duration that made sense for such a spell, in order to keep the final level at a minimum. The Range could be diminished further; that would require the target spot to be visible, but coming down to Voice would shave 2 magnitudes from the total level.
Similar spells could be investigated with Aquam (transporting water), Auram (transporting breezes) and perhaps also Imaginem (transporting images and sound)
This effect could eventually be invested into an item to provide natural light to an underground laboratory, reducing Upkeed by 1.
This is dancing close to the Arcane Circle Target, in fact may be superior than Arcane Circle. Is Hermetic Geometry on the horizon for Petronius? If not, should it be?
Not really. He has little interest in Hermetic Geometry.
I initially designed the spell using the Ring duration, but figured Diam was more appropriate and less expensive. But I didn't remove the ring from the description. It could be easily changed for "a doorway, window or other similar opening" as the shape of the spell. It is basically a portal.
Reading the description of Arcane Circle in TMRE, I see how this is similar. But the spell could also be designed so that the object to which he has an arcane connection must have a specific dimension, and only light/heat that strikes the object is transported.
This is exactly why I figured it might be worth discussing such an effect beforehand.
Basically, what Petronius is trying to achieve is a translocation of light (the heat is optional) from one place to another, ideally in an effect that qualifies as a portal-like effect. As a bare-bone version, he doesn't really need to do it at Arcane Connection range (although that would make the resulting spell more useful), so just seeing the spot from which he translocates the light would be enough for his purposes.
So, if by standing in front of an opening (a door or a window) he could cast a spell that would send light coming though that opening out of a different but similar opening (within a specified range, possibly through the use of an arcane connection), would that work?
===
------------> | (magical)
-- light ---> | (transport)
------------> | (no light)
===
Door 1
===
(magical) | ------------>
(transport) | -- light --->
(no light) | ------------>
===
Door 2
Well, I could see how the remote tracing of the area from which the light is translocated may be borderline and, as Jonathan mentioned, may go into the perview of Hermetic Geometry, a mystery that Petronius has no real interest in investigating.
So I think integrating the door/window requirement is entirely appropriate and even quite thematic to Petronius' concept and background, so I'll adjust the description of the spell accordingly.
A question remaining is, what would be the Target of the spell? Is it the door/window (so T:Ind) or is it the light passing through it? I would lean towards it being the light passing through, but then what Target is that, Ind or Part? I would obviously prefer it to be Ind, as that makes the spell easier. And a case could be made that the door/window delimitates a part of the light sufficiently to isolate it as an Ind amount of light.
A second question is, how does the door/window looks from the side that does not receive the translocated light? Is it simply a dark hole? Or can the scenery on the other side be clearly seen, but there is just no light coming through the doorway? I would suppose the second, since light (Ignem) are seperate from images (Imaginem) are seperate.
Anyway, here's the updated spell. Important changes are highlighted in red.
By casting this spell on a touched doorway, window or other similar opening, while holding an arcane connection to a distant but similar opening, the caster transports natural light and heat of the sun shining through the distant doorway, provided it is within 5 paces, so that they now shine through the touched doorway. Someone standing inside of the distant doorway can still clearly see the scenery outside of it (as the Imaginem species are unaffected), but there is simply no light nor heat coming through the doorway to illuminate what is on this side of the doorway. Any increase or decrease in the light or heat at the distant doorway, due to less sunlight shining through, is reflected in the amount of light and heat shining out of the local doorway. This may be due to the position of the sun, clouds obscuring it, or even the shadow of an object or creature blocking parts of the location.
Lab Total: Rego (11) + Ignem (0) + Focus (0) + Int (3) + Magic Theory (7) + Inventive Genius (3) = 24. The aura, the lab bonuses, and the benefits of experimentation would be added to his lab total. He'll want to increase his Ignem score by quite a bit before he begins investigating this effect (due to his magical focus, any point added to his Ignem score increases his lab total by 2).
Notes:
Using the Base 4 of the ReTe guidelines from MoH (p.92) for transporting a target up to 5 paces.
Since this is a portal research project, Petronius used the minimum Base and Duration that made sense for such a spell, in order to keep the final level at a minimum. The Range could be diminished further; that would require the distant doorway to be within a range closer than Arc and visible to him, but coming down to Voice would shave 2 magnitudes from the total level.
Similar spells could be investigated with Aquam (transporting water through a pipe), Auram (transporting breezes through a window) and perhaps also Imaginem (transporting images and sound)
This effect could eventually be invested into an item (at a slightly higher base to increase the distance of the transport) to provide natural light to an underground laboratory, either reducing Upkeed by 1 (light and heat) or increasing Health by 1 (fresh breezes) or even increasing Aesthetics by 1 (for the images).
Integrating all three effects into laboratory enchantments (either a single item or three seperate ones) could potentially eliminate all the disadvantages of a subterranean laboratory.
I can look at some of the rules again, possibly this evening and break it down into that framework. I think I need to have a clearer idea of his research plan to be able to answer the question asked. Now, if you wanted to bring a spell that uses the ReTe guideline outlined in Magi of Hermes on page 92 as a basis for your portal research, that's relatively easy to adjudicate. Create the spell and text and go from there. And, IMO, I'd rather you have something to work from right away than to have to work towards something you're bringing with you. If you want to work towards something, that's what making a story is for. 
)
in which case it could appear almost anywhere. Also, the duration of a round seems un-Hermetic; I would use either Momentary (in which case the object "flickers" in place) with the advantage that it is less likely be moved in the Magic Realm, or Diameter, in which case there is some chance of it being moved.
