In case you didn't notice the edited message.
Well, magically created skeletons vs Parma, magus wins. Demonically created skeletons vs Parma, magus loses. Parma Magica is strong, very deliberately so in my saga. It's the one reason why the Order of Hermes could be founded, and the one reason of it's hegemony. And also the reason why the Order has a kill-on-sight policy regarding non-Order wizards with Parma.
I assume your infernal skellies are not animated qwith a spell?
As I have said repeatedly Parma is great because it negates the negative social effects of the Gift. Its real protection value is quite low against other OoH magicians. It is strong against non Hermetic magicians and magical creatures, though, basically because they tend to suck big time at penetration.
Cheers,
Xavi
I prefer having them at the same level, but a skeleton being less "coherent" makes them less capable of taking damage. And a skellie made from a pile of bones would simply be less effective, slower and weaker overall(as it doesnt hang together by anything beyond the magic).
Nope, no problems.
The mentioned spell p135 says its the same.
Which is why you should always use a "might-multiplier" houserule like those discussed in the other thread.
They're animated with a Power. That will have much better penetration values. Also, if they're possessed, I might argue that the movement is no longer magical, is it's the natural movement of the demon that moves the skeleton. I have to admit that I didn't have the need to think about this, yet. I play relatively low-powered sagas. I would actually only use skeletons as what they are used for in films as well: cannon fodder mooks. Occupy the companions, the grogs, allow the magi to cast some high-level spells to deal with them. My players always love a chance to cast a BoAF. Recall, an animated skeleton by magic has no MR, so it's no enemy -- it's a combat extra. Now, a demon, in the guise of a skeleton... he would have MR, Powers, and his sword would be a "natural weapon"! 
That's a non-mook, end-boss skeleton if you need one! 
Actually, Parma is the best defense against magic. That's what's great in ArM5 over ArM4. Parma is actually useful A reasonably advanced combat magus will have Parma and a Form bonus of 10, so that's 30 MR. That is a lot, you can forget high-level spells against that mage. You can only beat that with preparation, and that's what stories are there for! 
As repeatedly said as well, my players can take down the Virgin Mary or archangel michael without much problems if you give them a year to prepare. A mere hermetic magus is not a problem. There are too many ways to boost penetration for Parma to be a real problem if tyou want to take a specific guy down. The OoH is more a wild west society: tyou can shot and kill, but you can be shot and jkilled as well. That is the big deterrent here. And you can TALK, to solve the issue thanks to your Parma. That is the big thing that made the ooH possible 
Cheers,
Xavi
That's probably why we have different views. It is effectively impossible for my players to "kill" the archangel Michael, much less the Virgin Mary, even given infinite years of preparation. I know, everything that has stats can be killed, but even so: (try to) kill the Virgin Mary, and God will certainly arrive. At least at her funeral, more possibly during the fight. And God does not have stats.
For my players, a MR of 100 (archangels) is impossible to defeat. How would you even begin to do that? Even if they have 25 in two Arts, and a Focus (Flambeau Archmage near Final Twilight), that's 75. Add beneficial Aura, Penetration, Mastery and you get 85. Add Penetration multipliers, and you get ~100 (if you're lucky). Only very, very low-level spells will be able to penetrate, and a lvl5 CrIg is not going to hurt an archangel. Their Soak is tremendous. Plus, angels have superior powers: if they want, they can call on God and have everything done that is needed. Stop speech (-15 to spell total), even stop magic itself. If they know that they're going against a Flambeau archmage, they will have prepared as well.
That said, the highest Arts my players currently have is 14 (we're in the beginning of our saga), but can effectively get to ~25-30 in a long saga (generally). Plus, we don't have combat-focused magi this time. Oh, I just remembered, we have a house rule regarding penetration multipliers: even if you fix an AC, you only get the original multiplier for that AC. So an AC that (originally) lasted hours only gives +1, although it's fixed.
Careful preparation can get a relatively powerful magus through a MR of 30, 40, sometimes even 50. Careful preparation and luck will get a magus through a MR of 60, exceptionally powerful magi perhaps up to 70. But 100? Impossible.
Ever heard of wizard's communion? Helps a great deal here 
We are not talking about a magus but about a team of magi. Quite different here. In our current saga the above statement might even be false, since we only have one real combat magus, but you get the idea. Ars Magica renders supernatural enemies quite on the low side of threats when they face several magi working together. Might is not a guarantee of success. In fact it tends to be the downfall of an opponent if the issue is "who can hit harder" between the creature and the magi. The "working together" part is where the OoH tends to fail, though, and why tremere are really so powerful IMO.
But we are deviating the conversation. It is pure gut feeling and suspension of disbelief, but to me a magus should not be able to laugh maniacally with arms crossed while a skeleton hits him in the head with a sword repeatedly. He should be able to dispose of the skellie quite easily, but taking (mundane) blows in the head? That is not kosher IMS.
Cheers,
Xavi
Isn't this the same as a magus throwing rocks with magic? Either it's resisted or it's targeted. If it's resisted, it hits automatically. If not, the targeting part requires some kind of 'to-hit' roll. The magical skeleton with the mundane sword needs to make an Attack to hit, so...
I believe this is also the way we do it, although I've not thought actively about it.
Natural attacks aren't resisted by Parma, but Powers are (or attacks boosted by powers, like claws on fire).
But throw in a ward, the natural attacks are (perhaps) blocked.
Ah, indeed. Good thing my players don't come up with that, and honestly, who cares to research MuVI? I agree that with careful preparation, most supernatural threats are overcome by magi. But archangels? I was terrified they had stats for them as RoP:D came out, so I tend to ignore rules a lot. Especially the various RoP books are so grossly unbalanced and overpowered, anything players want to use from those books needs expressed approval by me!
Nice point about the power of the Tremere to work in numbers... hm... might make a story about that...
I tailor the encounters to the magi. If a group of skeletons with swords will be deflected by Parma, then they're just there for a quick "BAM!". If I need higher threats, I let them be non-spell skeletons with natural weapons. Simple.
Oh, I forgot: and none of ma players are that insane that they are willing to test if those swords are stopped my MR. No, they'll send forth the grogs and attack from the back row. And then it's perfectly fine combat again! All of my magi go to great pains to avoid direct hand-to-hand combat. Rightly so, a 1-1-0 can kill them instantly. (Not that I allow that, magi are death-consent in my games. Grogs not.)
Get any sort of Arcane Connection, use name+horoscope+symbolic representation of target, and lets say you have 5 in penetration, the above means that becomes 25. Spell level 5 and 100 penetration there you go.
The thing is that even a MR of 100 isnt a big problem because the part of the spell causing damage can be a base guideline 5. Then multicast that. Sure it takes a bit of preparation, but impossible to achieve, lol not a chance.
And thats still even before accounting for Wizards Communion.
Any decent specialist with some experience can do this. Generalists will have to work harder certainly, but its totally realistic for a specialist to have 30+ in 2 arts. With a focus and all the other bonuses you can get, you may not even need the AC to work it.
AC to angels I find very dubious, but I'd allow them for a good (and difficult) story. Horoscopes for angels? Good luck with that! Still, with a Communion, you can get that spell through the 100 Might in your saga. Then, you make +30 damage (BoAF). You can up that damage to +45 without needing a Ritual. Michael has +25 Soak. And then, your spell would go through and he's got an Immunity (Fire). PeVi is your better hope, and you'd have to invent a "Angel's Eternal Oblivion" spell first... Demons will love that!
All is moot, as you've got a group of magi casting a spell (Communion) and then casting another spell (attack spell) at R:Voice. Michael will always win initiative, and fast-cast multi-kill the mages, so they can't even cast. Sure, the magi might theoretically be able to penetrate, if your powerlevel allows that, but Michael has powers of his own. And he will act first.
Oh, plus: you might even kill Michael. But hey, God can resurrect him. He's God, after all. And give him better stats. And then Michael might have a Grude (with capital "G")...
By the time you go and kill him he should have been neutralized for several minutes already (at least). Kill in first hit is difficult, but neutralize on first hit is easier, generally.
Artchangel michael and the virgin were only examples of preposterous propositions as targets. I find them having stats at all to be a HUGE mistake. They are examples of something that should NOT be something you can even dream of challenging, even with the whole OoH by your side: they should be in another league. Above might 50 should be out of any magus in the OoH without dedicating his whole life to the challenge AND having an unlikely scarce combo of V&F and covenant resources to succeed.
But under official rules a 75 creature (like michael) is not that big of a treat. And that is a huge problem for suspension of disbelief. A 25-30 year old team of 3 magi can kill the dragon of the Pyrenees? Come on! My ex-munchkins have recurrent jokes about that kind of stuff. One even seriously told his apprentice when he was 10 years old (as an apprentice) that his apprentice's gauntlet would be to kill the dragon Sigussen and loot his library. He had 5 years to prepare. The disquieting thing is that he would have likely suceeded if we had allowed that per the RAW. That proposal marked the high water mark of "let's screw the system" IMS, though, and we have tended to see less powergaming since then. I am glad about it, but that does not make the RAW for penetration and supernatural creatures any better.
Xavi
Ah, we fully agree
My houserule of having a fixed AC only give the penetration multiplier of the original AC might help a lot to keep up the "suspension of disbelief". Also, my players are usually scared enough and don't powergame the rules to let things like "apprentices kill dragons" happen. Plus, I give my powerful NPCs powers, so they're not entirely defenseless.
Was that a PC apprentice? Because, the advancement rules only really work if you give your apprentices 3 seasons of expose (lab slave) and 1 season of dedicated training. And if you've got the Good Teacher virtue, your apprentice will need to take 2-5 virtues along the lines of "guild trained, powerful parens, educated"...
Well my actual point wasnt exactly just in relation to angels but vs might creatures overall...
Why not? If you can make a daily horoscope for a dragon with zero actual knowledge about it, then i suggest its quite possible for angels as well.
WITH communion its EASY. Thats the point. Its quite realistic to smash through even a Might 100 opponent for just a single experienced specialist magi, while a group of weak magi can do it with communion.
And once they smash through that, that creature goes down FAST most of the time. Thats what i dislike.
Obviously, who would bother with using physical damage when there´s the x Eternal Oblivion spells?
Use it to multicast 3 or 4 copies of level 5-25 spells depending on how strongly you can cast and still penetrate.
You can play the nasty SG who always makes sure the PCs gets killed when you think they´re going too far, but using the rules as written, unless the SG interferes onesidedly its totally possible to do.
As long as he doesnt bear a grudge, its fine by me...
The REAL point however is that a Might 50 creature is just weak and most PCs can come up with ways to dispose of such a foe without too much trouble. A Might 20 creature is just a bit of Vis on legs(or scales, wings or whatever).
Not enough. All you need is to GET ANY AC, as then you can start using the other multipliers and quickly get at least 4 as a multiplier. And unless you skimped on the Penetration Ability, that will give enough to smack through the defense of waaaaay too many creatures far too easily.
Need? No such rules anywhere...
I don't know if you can make a daily horoscope for a dragon with "zero" knowledge about it.
I know the rules don't say you need to know anything about the target of the horoscope, but the rules also don't say you need to know what the dragon looks like to draw a picture of it. It's just common sense.
--
Bye
Richard
Nope. Magic causes the skeleton's arm to move. There is no magic making the sword move. The magically animated arm is moving the sword, not magic itself. It is similar to using magic to fling a rock and let it go after flinging it. If you used magic to carry the rock all the way to the target, it is rsisted. Used to just fling it, then it is not resisted (as per "Invisible Sling of Vilano")