What are you smoking? Xavi's quote, below your comment, is the first citation of any rule in this thread. Put down the bag of glue, M - join the rest of us in reality whenever you're ready.
One last time, let's.
I don't lie in wait for anyone, much less you - with comments like yours, I see no reason to point out the obvious.
I'll address flawed points as I see them, and as often as you or anyone else posts them, I'll refute them - but I prefer to have discussions with people who can follow them. And please keep all future personal comments off the boards - I think everyone would rather I have to ignore them in private.
Xavi, LP -
The "container" is specifically for "a specific length of time". It's not a Watching Ward, it's not "watching" anything but a clock - it's a time bomb, not a land mine. There is nothing about linking an Intellego spell "as a trigger for a contained spell" in those guidelines, only with vis in that one spell (tho' a breakthrough could certainly bridge that gap, I'd think - and if that's the case, no reason a Player Character needs to be the one to have done that.)
(Altho' Watching Ward uses this base effect, it clearly states "Duration is non-standard".)
And even at that, the questions of Range to the "Container" vs Range of the Intellego vs Range of the final spell effect, and Duration of the Container vs Duration of the final effect are still unresolved.
I agree that classic D&D spells like "Magic Mouth" should be available without spending vis, and I agree that Rego Vim might be the way to get there - I just disagree that simply slapping an Intellego-Form requisite on top of another effect is even close to supported by the RAW - which was the original suggestion to the question.
Cuchulainshound, you seem to believe that because the necessarily abbrieviated guidelines do not explain every nuance, the nuances are not allowed. The reason the spell is a ritual is clearly stated in the spell description. As far as triggering conditions, the implication would seem to be (though I'm happy for an author to chime in and correct me) that these are the same sort of allowed for magical items, since the Intellego spell aspect also mirrors those. On the other hand, I quite agree that merely providing an Intellego requisite does not suddenly allow a spell to become independent of the caster or intelligent - that's the domain of ReVi.
So, by that reading, a watching ward type spell cast on a doorway could, for instance, be triggered by someone walking through it and thus function as an alarm. Thus, to answer LuciusT's question, ReVi can be used to set up one-off alarms, useful for for short term affairs like ensuring a good night's sleep, but for a reusable system you do need an enchanted item.
What I'm saying is, those nuances are not clearly supported. Which is why they're "nuances", aka "interpretations".
The difference is thus - let's say the rules say "Apples are good". (Where apples = some statement in the rules, and "good" = explicit.)
Some people say "Apples may be good, but I like pears better" - this is fine by me, changing the rules to suit personal preference. We probably all do this in our games to one extent or another. I certainly do.
Some people say "Apples are good, therefore pears are also good!" - this makes no sense to me. A canon Rego ward is not the same as a Perdo pseudo-ward or a Muto psedo-ward. Anyone can rule they are the same, but that gets us back to personal preference, not what the rules support.
Other people say "The rules may say nothing of lemons or limes, but lemons are Correct, and limes are Wrong" - this is arrogant and annoying to me on several levels. The poster may prefer lemons, they may dislike limes, and I may even agree with that, but "right" and "wrong" are solely up to each Troupe and each Player.
Some people say "What you are looking for is pears". To me, this is sloppy and dangerously misleading, and is what is happening here. I like pears too, but there is nothing in the rules about pears, and one should, imo, make that distinction, so new readers are clear on what is RAW, what is possibly suggested by the RAW, what is one possible interpretation, and what is pure fan creativity and rewrite.
There is nothing in the rules about a "land mine spell" that uses no vis and uses Intellego-Form as a trigger. Nothing against it, nothing about it - nothing there at all, specifically.
This discussion is not about Watching Ward - except that, as far as the rules read, that is the only clear solution to the spell in question. It's the closest clear example we have. There is certainly good material in the ReVi section to expand upon - just nothing explicit, nothing that addresses linking such effects directly to achieve the desired delayed/triggered effect.
ReVi Guidelines do offer a way to create a specific time delay. Those hints can be expanded with a Player's creativity - but what I'm saying - as clearly as I can say it - is that creativity is ~not~ the same as the Rules explicitly supporting the same end result.
And altho' both the RAW and fan creativity are common and encouraged in the game, the two should not be confused, especially not on a bulletin board where the goal (as I understand it) is both to explain the rules, and also to expand upon them.
Altho', if anyone feels that distinction is not important, they're free to disagree.
"Apples are good, but I think the authors implied that pears are just fine as well" - perfectly acceptable on all counts!
You are drawing a clear distinction between what is written, and what you are pulling from reading between the lines. You are citing specific rules foundations for your interpretation - Respect, all good. (And I happen to agree.)
I don't expect everyone to create an airtight flowchart of logic, but in a game where interpretation is practically assumed, it makes things clearer and stronger than dancing about saying "I like pears!"
Here is the theoretical spell CC frowns upon.
(BTW, all my spell names are horribly campy and smarmy and bad and in violation of paradigm. I apologize in advance )
[i]CrIm40 The Burglar Alarm of Hermes[/i]:
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Circle
Req: Creo, Imaginem
The caster draws a circle, which detects whenever someone crosses in or out and signals this event with a loud trumpeting sound. The alarm cannot be “resetâ€, it continues for the duration of the spell unless dispelled or suppressed. An Animal variation of this spell is useful for detecting the approach of animals, and usually manages to scare them away.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 Requisites, +2 elaborate effect)
Looking at it, I think it is perfectly reasonable. I admit that it is not as absolutely strict as some people prefer, but from my point of view I jacked the level up high as a token of appeasement. Normally, I would say that this is a case of the requisites being necessary for the effect, and make the spell only level 30.
Now for some Spell Container Fun!
[i]ReViG Hermes Hand Grenade[/i]:
R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Ind
This spell is cast on an object, which will then hold a spell within for as long as you maintain Concentration. When you release your Concentration, the spell goes off and takes upon that object at the spot it is located. You cast this spell first, then must maintain Concentration as you cast the spell to be contained (the very next spell you cast is the one “loaded†into the object). This requires an Intelligence + Concentration stress roll of 6+ (slightly lower because this is what the spell is designed to do). The spell to be contained must be no more than five levels lower than this spell. Multiple effects may be contained as long as their sum levels do not exceed (the level of this spell -5). You must maintain concentration on this spell as you do, and the container will continue to draw your spells in and hold them until it is “fullâ€. The spells all take effect simultaneously, regardless of the order in which they were cast.
A variation of this spell called Hermes Time Bomb had a Duration of Diameter, but otherwise functions the same.
(Base Effect, +1 Touch, +1 Conc)
[i]ReViG Hermes Land Mine[/i]:
R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle
This spell contains another spell that is cast while this circle is being drawn. Because this is what the spell is designed to do and the time it takes to draw a circle, no Concentration roll is required unless there is some sort of disturbance (in which case you roll as normal for the situation). If the ring is broken, the spell goes of within the circle (or upon it). The spell contained must be ten levels lower than this one. This spell may hold multiple spells, all cast as the circle is drawn, up to a sum number of levels equal to (the level of this spell -10).
(Base Effect, +1 Touch, +2 Ring)
They may need refinement, and they will make some people howl. But that's life. CH, does Applesauce fit within your ridgid logic paradigm?
There are those that have the school of thought that if the guideline does not SPECIFICALLY INCLUDE something, it is prohibited. This seems to be Cuchulainshound's stance on the issue.
Then there are those that those are guidelines to give levels for effects and that they should be applied intelligently to create effects that are similair and aren't specifically covered.
These two schools of thought will never agree and they rarely see the RAW as the same.
By Cuchulainshound view: Since there is no speciflc spell example by the writer of one of the books or in the books in specific, there is no way to do watching ward type effect other than as the explicitly listed ritual spell. The container is not detailed enough to allow it.
By Marko's view (and a number of others), if you remove the indefinate and unlimited duration (spec) of the watching ward, you can get a lower duration (say same effect but dissipates if not triggered at end of sun (or moon) duration). They are using the container guidelines as a guideline to develop things.
I personally side with Marko's view as this is the power of the Ars Magic sytems
Of course i do as well. Otherwise the system would be quite boring and not very useful.
CH, you rant and rave mightily about others claiming opinion as RAW, and then you do it yourself. Again and again.
Your opinion isnt any less interpretation than that of anyone else.
That is correct. Marko's use of the container guidelines is not Pears to Apples of the Watching ward and you seem to always take that sort of ranting and extreme view.
It is more like you have a palette of paint and a picture of a bowl of fruit in outline. One is a paint by number (explicit example of this must be used this way), the other is substitute the yellow for red on the apples. Both valid by the palette (guidelines), both create a good picture (spell), both are within the rules.
For what it's worth, I don't think that this is spell really works. The important thing that this spell is doing is trying to detect a person.
I think that something like this would probably be successful:
Hermes' Circular Alarm
InCo(Im) 15
R:Touch, D:Sun, T:Circle
This spell detects whenever a person crosses a circle traced during casting. The spell indicates that the circle has been crossed by a loud trumpeting sound.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)
The imaginem requisite is I think needed for the making of the sound, but it is fundamentally cosmetic: the real effect of the spell is to detect people. If the trumpeting sound did something more (like potentially deafen people) then it would be a requisite that costs a magnitude.
It would be different if your alarm rained fire and death (for example) on the person crossing the circle (rather than merely making a sound). As then the main effect of the spell would be to rain fire and death. There is a judgement call somewhere to be made by the troupe.
In other cases you might be right, but here I will break a spear (maybe that is a Spanish expression) in support of CH.
The statements by CH havce not been that this is impossible to achieve according to the guidelines. What he is claiming is that the RAW is SILENT about the land mine/alarm effect: you can rule whatever you want, but it is not in the RAW for somepone to claim that it is possible/impossible.
Quite a difference here
People are claiming that the rule is there. It is not (I just re-checked the guidelines) so he is correct here.
I would also HR that it is possible, but that is a HR/interpretation, not "pure RAW" text.
Wouldn't such a spell allow the circle to detect someone?
But then, for the circle to make a sound when detecting a person, you'd need a linked trigger. Which such a spell can't do. By the raw, the only spell who can do this is watching ward.
I'd rule temporary watching wards as OK, and this would be the way to go IMO.
Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie uses a cosmetic effect to relay the information. Cold misty breath. People other than the caster can detect what is going on. In this case, the alarm spell also indicates its information via a cosmetic effect, allowing people other than the caster to know what is going on.
Technically, yes - and that's where the house-ruling comes in.
The ReVi Guidelines do not, in fact, allow for any "alarms and single use magic items", as many here (yourself included) understand, but include further limitations as they are written. Beyond that, as RLove said, it's open territory for a Troupe to decide.
(I would think that if the caster remains within the circle, it is not a large stretch, and it ~is~ a classic effect, if not a canon one.)
Thanks X! Ironic that it's a non-native speaker who has to explain the meaning of my words.
For the record, I'm about to go on an extended leave of absence for a week - I mention this only because someone suggested that I "hide". In this case, I have planned my hiding for months, and will cleverly do it hundreds of miles from the nearest internet connection.
No. Strictly it allows you to detect whether something is within the circle. So, a such a spell with a non-momentary duration monitors what is within the circle.
It's not really the point anyway; you could make a Room target InCo(Im) spell that sounded an alarm when someone entered the room (which would be two magitudes higher, but otherwise unchanged).
Yes, precisely. The results of the detection spell can be reported via a cosmetic effect. Precisely, what counts as a cosmetic effect is a judgement call for the troupe. A sound seems fine, to me. An explosion would not be, IMS.
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