Question about Rising Ire's duration

Hi all,

We had a question/debate arise when someone cast "Rising Ire." Background: They cast it on an enemy guard captain and made him furiously angry at his boss, a renounced Magus. Fair enough. It was cast with a non-momentary duration. The spell states that it "makes the target furiously angry at a person. A personality stress roll of 9+ allows the target to hold the feeling in check, but it is felt strongly regardless."

The character in question rachieved the 9 on the roll, thereby keeping the feeling in check and at least not being compelled to rush and attack his boss then and there, though he was still angry. Here is where the question came about: Would the enemy captain have to roll again in the next combat round to continue keeping the feeling in check? Or would the first roll dictate whether or not he was able to control his anger for the duration of the spell?

Advice appreciated.

Once he fails his roll, would you allow a re-roll every round to check his anger?

I would allow a re-roll only when circumstances change. Anger is in check until the boss ticks him off.

OTOH, it's called rising ire.

From a purely rules-lawyer-y standpoint ofsomeone trying to get around a successful personality roll, I'd say no - the captain doesn't check to attack his boss every round.

I'd say the captain doesn't check to attack his boss at all - he checks to give in to his anger. How he expresses that anger really depends on him. He may become insubordinate, he may ignore the guy, he may storm off and leave the guy exposed or he may attack him if he has a history of thumping people he's angry with.

That said, I'd also say he doesn't have to reroll each round. He fought down the urge to give in to his anger - that personal internal struggle was won. He's not going to have the same struggle the next round, even if he remains really angry with the guy.

If you put it into a non-combat scenario, ask yourself if the victim of the spell would still have to check each round. If no, they shouldn't have to check in combat either.

It would probably make sense to roll once per scene, though a big enough event (being given latrine duty) might reasonably require a reroll,

I wouldn't call for rolls every round though,

If you want call it "once per relevant event" and consider the spell being cast as the first applicable "event", much as you would call for rolls every time you are wounded with berserk,

I don't agree. I think it would require a roll each round. Wouldn't it follow the same rules as for other spells that have longer than momentary durations? z.B. an Ignem spell cast at diameter duration does damage every round for 2 minutes.

If Rising Ire was cast at diameter duration, the magic is acting on that target for the entire two minutes. For two minutes that magic is constantly nudging him and essentially telling him "You really hate your boss. Despise him. Look, he's over there by the corner. You could reach him easily and give him a piece or two of your mind. Come on... DO IT!" The spell description does state that the anger is still felt regardless of whether you make the roll. You just rolled to hold it in check. For now.

So, you'd roll each round, with the character potentially switching back and forth between attacking and not attacking?

I stand with the others.

The anger is created for the spell's duration. You manage to resist it for a given situation. If nothing changes, there's no reason to suddenly give in. Like, IRL, if someone gets on your nerves, you might strike him. But if you resist and he says little more, you won't strike him, even though you're still angry. If the situation changes (like, he gives you an order, even if it is nicely), then he pushes your buttons.

I may be wrong, but I also believe that, if you'd have to roll each round, it'd have been written, as it is for other spells.

No, I wouldn't roll every round of the duration. Only until the roll is failed.

The way I interpret it is this: During the duration of the spell, the magic is creating furious anger in that character towards another individual. Every round you're trying to resist acting on it until eventually you break, and the anger takes over causing you to react. Its not required that the target of your anger do anything to "taunt" you, so to speak, as the spell is already doing that. The spell is creating a brand new emotion that may or may not have already existed. Whether it did or not is irrelevant. The spell is creating anger that keeps pushing you and pushing you until you give up and lash out (or the spell duration ends). After all, the spell is called Rising Ire.

I will concede that should the target of the anger leave the immediate area, that rolls would cease unless he comes back.

As a followup, one of the Magi has the "Susceptible to Infernal" flaw. She went into an Infernal aura, made the roll, and was fine. In a moment of snark, I sarcastically asked her to make an additional roll the following round to see if she was still all right. Everyone acted as if this was reasonable instead of petulant, which led me to wonder what the interpretation should properly be.

As some benchmarks:
Casting 'Wound that Weeps' at diameter duration doesn't inflict a light wound every round; rather it inflicts a light wound that cannot heal normally until 2 minutes are up.
Conversely, Grip of the Choking Hand does in fact cause a fatigue level loss each round until the subject passes out.
A PeTe to destroy dirt of Sun duration doesn't destroy dirt each round until sunset; rather it destroys the dirt and also destroys any further earth matter poured into the hole.
Touch of the Goose Feather, if cast at Diameter, would hamper a magus every round for 2 minutes in a sneezing fit.

If there was any specific reason to roll again i totally agree with doing it. And that includes spending alot of time in the aura even.
A good reason might be having to make a moral decision or having temper flare up due to something or anything that might motivate being affected by infernal influence somehow.

The flaw states "whenever you enter an Infernal Aura" rather than "when in an Infernal Aura", so as far as the letter of the flaw goes, there should be no reroll if the character stays in the same aura. It would also be a bit silly: if the character rerolls each round, she will be fine some rounds and ill the others, which she can then take advantage off to delay her actions until she is fine. It does allow a character to go out and re-enter until she succeeds the roll if she really wants to.

I agree with your conclusion, but not your reasons. The magic doesn't make the fire burn and do damage, it simply creates the fire, which then acts normally for that duration. If that fire is put out, it does not keep re-creating the fire again and again to replace what is now gone.

Some Techniques DO constantly reinforce the magical effect - the canon example (under Durations) is a PeTe pit that cannot be filled with dirt for the duration. Rego spells clearly maintain the desired effect, and so a Target under ReMe sleep, for instance, cannot be awakened for the Duration (but can be immediately if the Duration is Momentary!).

However, if you Creo a stone at Touch range with duration, and the stone is moved, another stone does not appear at your fingertip. So we're clearly dealing with only one emotion, and emotions that are lost are not re-created.

I would say this is the same as that - one new emotion is Created, and then acts normally for the Duration. Note that the Personality roll is not to ignore the effect, but to have other emotions "hold it in check", to not be ruled by that one emotion. Other Techniques would be needed to make that one emotion dominate, Muto to create an unnaturally strong emotion, Perdo to destroy any conflicting ones, or Rego to manipulate them.

But if somethingnatural were to happen to shake up that delicate balance, a harsh word or a few drinks of ale, then new personality rolls might be in order.

I look at it this way: This is a RAW spell. It does not say make repeated checks, it does not say roll every round. It says make a roll to control it.

It says make a personality roll to hold it in check. He is still steaming, he is still angry, he controlling his anger even if he or she is still furious. Unless something adds to the fury, he is not going to suddenly lose control, esp by something someone other than person they are angry at does.

If I am a shield grog guarding a mage in battle, I get angry at the mage and control the anger to keep protecting him, it is controlled. It is not suddenly going to break free the next round or round after unless something happens to increase or provoke it more.

think about it, someone angers you, you are angry for a while, not just a minute or two but you control it and keep controlling it until another provocation causes you to snap.

I just wanted to speek about that issue.

I have a conceptual problem:

hermetic magic canno't affect what is not there when the spell is cast. It's the limit of arcane connection: "hermetic magic cannot affect an unsensed target": so you can't affect something which is not where you cast a long duration spell, unless you have sensed it.

So why does a PeTe with duration, doing a hole in the ground, destroy earth which is put in it by any other people and that you had no mean to know there will be in your spell area of effect later?

Other example: if i cast a ReMe sleep spell on a castle (structure target), with a sun duration: everyone which is inside fall asleep (if i penetrate their MR if any). What about a guard who enter the castle after my spell is cast?

You target the place where the hole is supposed to be. So anything Terram-like that "enters" that hole is destroyed, as long as the PeTe spell is in effect.

The entering guard will fall asleep (providing the spell penetrates). You target the structure, not the individual people inside the castle.

When one addresses something like this, especially as a Story Guide (which is the level for a lot of these questions, since many players just don't worry about things at this level), we have to make sure the interpretation applies to all situations...

So, if a mage casts PeAn to destroy leather armour, say on a soldier in the road, then any soldier who wanders into that "Animal hole" has their leather bits destroyed? if the mage casts PeCo "Dust to Dust" with a duration, at a zombie in a doorway, then any zombie who wanders into that "Corpus hole" is then also destroyed? And does that work for other Techniques, and if not why not? Or, what, if anything, makes a "hole" a valid target, but not a road or a doorway?

Yes, it does appear problematic, or at least at first pass - let's see if we can't figure it out. And we do that by looking to the rules...

Many PeFo effects do not need to work this way, and only need momentary - you see what you want gone, it goes away, end of discussion. But what if you did have those same effects with a continuing duration, what would happen?

Canon Mentem spells clearly do work this way, as the first line of the PeMe Guidelines state: "Emotions naturally reappear in a person, so so spells that destroy them must have a continuing Duration to ensure that they do not come back..."
Such Targets are individual minds, not physical locations (a pillow, a hallway), so they don't lay in wait for the next mind as some of the above examples, but they do lay in wait for the next appropriate thought/emotion to fill that mind.

PeIm also emphasizes the use of continuing Durations, and even addresses (in its own unique sense) targets that change during that duration, by adding a magnitude for images that change, etc.

There are additional examples for PeAq(Au) (Odious Drought), PeIm, and in the PeVi guidelines. So one clearly can use Perdo to "target" things not yet sensed.

So how do we explain this within Hermetic Theory?

(LOL - and I'm not going to - or not right now - phone call from a client, gotta run, so I'm gonna post this and bail - sorry!) :unamused: :laughing:

No, PeAn to destroy an armour targets the armour. Once that is destroyed, then more duration won't help. PeAn at T:Room would destroy any armour that enters the room for the duration. PeCo targets the zombie, once the zombie is gone, nothing more to target. If you cast Dust to Dust on T:Room, any zombies in the room will be destroyed, for the duration of the spell. Also zombies that enter the room later (but still in the duration).

This interpretation is pretty much my understanding, as well... it's not just the duration that's important here, but also the target. Anything with T: Individual won't affect things other than that individual.

As for how this relates to the mentem effects originally mentioned... I would agree that if a D:Mom spell requires a single check, it seems unfair that, despite increasing the duration, there is still only one check made. OTOH, the argument can be made that, in the case of a Momentary effect, even if the guard fails his roll, unless he can do something based on that anger immediately, the effect is nil... the guard gets angry, whirls around to confront the target of his anger... and then his anger is gone. Putting a duration on the spell is the only way to really ensure that anything happens due to the anger you've put in the target.

The point is that he feels an emotion, whether the emotion lasts 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes or all day and whether it is normally created or magically created, he is feeling the emotion but if he controls it because it is in personality to control it (thus personality roll), it is controled for as long as he feels it unless something more changes it. He will still show it in subtle ways though probably (tensed body, little snap to words, etc...) but it is in control for as long as he is feeling it for that one roll.

Also remember that the character could still be subject to circumstantial retests on the personality roll for the full duration of the spell (and PCs may be able to quite easily force retests through their actions),