question about the verditius

ok im confused . it says on mystery cults page 119 that they are initiated via the embrace of boethius(spell)

doesn't learningverditius magic(the virtues) by itsself make you lose the ability to do toolless formulaic magic?

what was the point in making that spell for ew members from other houses?

It explains that in the surrounding text, y'know. Some things are solved by asking questions; others by paying attention to the answer.

The reason that exists in the first place is because it's a problem the Founder was inflicted with. It's inflicted upon new Verditius magi hailing from other Houses because them keeping toolless casting while all the magi who were apprenticed as Verditius needed tools would've been unfair and, more importantly, unbalancing to the political structure of the House.

you misunderstood. my point is this if i learn the virtue verditius magic don't i lose the ability to use formulaicmagic anyway?
at least that's how i understood it in the core rulebook

The rules for teaching Hermetic Virtues didn't exist at the time either the core rulebook or HoH:MC were written. Additionally when I last read the Apprentices book I got the impression that the teaching technique couldn't be applied to mystery cult virtues.

Hu where do the book write that Verditius can't cast formulatic magic? Yes , they need their casting tools to use formulaic magic but that's just a requirement for them to use the magic and this items don't get used up when you cast a spell.

According to HoH:MC, an apprentice uses the initiation described on p 118 in the main text to initiate Verditius Magic. Since a magus joining the House can't have his Arts re-opened, the normal initiation script won't work. The Embrace of Boethius ritual spell is used as part of an alternate script to initiate the Verditius Magic virtue for Hermetic Magi (with an already opened Gift) who choose to join the House.

For House Verditius, from Apprentices, "House Verditius Initiates an apprentice immediately following the opening of an apprentice’s Arts." Verditius spends two seasons teaching his apprentice in the first year. They are so generous with their time, it's amazing. So, a Verditius apprentice will always have a problem with formulaic spells. I imagine a verditius taking another's apprentice, if it ever were to happen, might have to resort to the ritual, rather than a standard Verditius initiation...

But according to HoH:MC, page 117, "The Initiation happens during the season that the apprentice is opened to the Hermetic Arts."

Books, stop being internally inconsistent!

Well, the books are internally consistent within themselves.

To be fair MC didn't clearly describe the initiation process taking any time. Apprentices makes it all take a flat season. Part of Bjornaer's season is spent traveling and experiencing the Ritual of 12 years, but it would be disappointing if say Bjornaer could initiate in a day or 10 while the other houses have to take an entire season. Having it all take a season makes sense.

Verditi (plural) can do formulaic magic. It's just that, unlike other magi, they need to craft some small items (usually taking around an hour or two to find suitable materials and make, in my experience) to allow them to cast.

Think wands in Harry Potter. Most wizards can do magic without them, in this context, but there's a specific sub group who definitely need a wand to act as a focus.

I must point out that Black Liger is correct, but a careless reading could imply that the Casting Tools must be made each time a Formulaic spell is cast. This is NOT the case. Casting tools (baring the flaw, "consumed casting tools") are permanent, and further, can be enchanted (House virtue, mind).....

TMRE (at least) is rather explicit that initiations require a season to 'take'.

Very true. But it's also borderline close to the unwritten house rule a lot of sagas allow lab work in the seasons where you earn adventure XP. If you want adventure XP, you're supposed to spend the season in contemplation of that activity that earned you the XP.

I understood the question to be about the rules (as written), not custom.
My local troupe currently plays without the above house rule, for the record.

Which rules, where? I know it says what you say in TMRE.
I scanned HoH:MC for similar language, it doesn't say it there. It's a pretty big oversight for a book that relies so much on Initiations...

On another note, is there anything stopping a Verditius from initiating a magus into VM without adding in the casting tools requirement, aside from the inevitable Wizard's Wars that would result from pissing on the House's traditions and extant balance?

It's never been attempted, or at least no-one has admitted to attempting it, so we don't know.

Mechanically any magus initiated into the Verditius Magic minor virtue, as detailed in the core rulebook, would necessarily gain a need for casting tools as part of the initiation. But it could be that there's a possible major virtue "Untainted Verditius Magic" that wouldn't add the requirement... if so, there's no known magus that has it.

Yes, Ramidel, the lack of a Script to do so. You could write a script to initiate without that Flaw, but that requires Cult Lore : Verditius, which you can't pick up until you are initiated. So you are going to get the Flaw. You could "help" those who follow you though...... Alas, the "new" flaw your new script would require would probably be nastier........

So, in a Metagame sense, why are you trying to get rid of this Flaw? Really, thanks to the House Mystery "Enchanted Casting Tools", it's rather a benefit. Once you have spun up your Lab Score, you can get most of the benefits of Spell Mastery in a season, as opposed to the years it takes other Magi. And, if you are worried about losing them, you can add an enchantment to send them to and from your lab at will.

Yes, you can get rid of the Flaw from the ritual, and you don't need to replace it with another one. As per TMRE and HoH:MC, you can adapt scripts. Remove the Flaw. It takes a decent Int + Cult Lore, and you may botch it. But once you succeed you've got a new script. Of course, as mentioned above, this would be done by a Verditius initiating a new Verditius and you would lose the advantage of Enchanted Casting Tools.

By the rules as written there's no flaw, no ordeal, in the initiation script.

You don't gain a major virtue and take two minor flaws as an ordeal. You just gain a single minor virtue; a virtue with a downside.

In order to initiate someone into Verditius Magic without them needing casting tools you wouldn't just need a new script, you'd need a new virtue. Now it's perfectly reasonable to houserule that Verditius Magic isn't actually a single minor virtue, it's actually a major virtue and two points of flaws, but that isn't supported by the rules themselves.

Initiating Verditius Magic without casting tools is like initiating Mercurian Magic without the need for ceremonial spontaneous spells; in both cases the downside isn't a flaw you gain, it's just part of the standard virtue.