I would like to ask you guys about something that got me confused.
So, there are general Vim spells like Maintaining the Demanding Spell, which can affect other spells. The level of the spell they can affect depends on the level of the "metamagic" spell. By the letter of the rules, this should mean that, say, a level 25 Maintaining the Demanding Spell would support a level 25 spell, but it's weird because some of the levels go into Duration, Range and Target, not into the base effect, which would be the spell support thing. If we take that into account, a level 25 Maintaining the Demanding Spell would only support a spell up to level 15. So... which is it?
Range duration and target all help determine the level of the final spell. A range touch spell and a range sight spell might be identical except in that, but one is 10 levels (2 magnitudes) above the other one. So yeah, it can support a spell whose base level + range + duration + target are of equal level to that of the MDS.
By contrast, increasing the level of the Demanding Spell with higher range or duration would not raise the level of effect it can target, though. Here's your appropriate spell guideline:
Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose level is less than or equal to the level + 2 magnitudes of the Vim spell
All example spells have levels and corresponding 'efficiency' calculated from the Base Guidelines plus additions for increases in R/D/T from the minimums.
Design notes for Maintain the Demanding Spell says: Base effect, +1 Touch +1 Diam
Base Guideline used is "Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose level is less than (or equal to errata tells us IIRC) the level +2 magnitudes of the Vim spell"
This is math not magic.
I often use a D:Sun variant of Maintaining the Demanding Spell I call 'Day of the Demanding Spell". It is 5 levels "less efficient" than the original example, because the increase from Diameter to Sun is 1 magnitude or 5 levels, so it only affects spells up to [lvl-5].
You subtract the magnitudes you add above Per/Mom/Ind to the modifier in the guideline. So in my case the design is: "Affect spells up to level of Vim spell +2 magnitudes -3 (1 forTouch, 2 for Sun)". This equals "level -1 magnitude"
When a base says "level" for itself, it's the level of the base, not the level of the actual spell. So let's take a look at your spell:
Base 1 +1 Touch +3 Moon = level 5, yes.
It works on Base 1 +2 = level 3 spells.
Meanwhile, the traditional Maintaining the Demanding Spell would be:
Base 3 +1 Touch +1 Diameter = level 5, the same.
It works on Base 3 +2 = level 5 spells.
Thanks, I looked at the whole thing again, and your explanation makes a lot of sense. Treating all modifiers of the spell level as part of the effective level was weird but I couldn't put my finger on it.
It may be interesting to know that Maintaining the Demanding Spell has been there since 3ed at least, when the guidelines did not exist, with only the slight change from R: n/a and D: 1min. It was always so that the metaspell level had to match the underlying spell level.
The base guideline has been reverse engineered to fit the actual spell design. R: per and D: mom obviously make no sense, so the guideline has to allow +2 free magnitudes on the underlying spell, so that the metaspell can spend one on range and one on duration. If you want to extend R/D further, then the metaspell must exceed the underlying one.
And now that you have a ReVi 50 maintening to moon, you will only really need "concentration" duration in all your spells. That's -5 levels for all spells which are canonly at sun duration.
And if you cannot do a ReVi 50, do at 45 and a MuVi 50 if you are more capable, to give +5 power level to your ReVi.
Vim always ends by being the most versatile art... in a game about magic, it's a bit fun.
Just remember that if the spells are being 'concentrated' for a moon duration, you may have trouble ending the spells before then if you don't want it up constantly. I have seen someone knock themselves into twilight trying to spontaneously cancel a spell they cast for too long.
Speaking of which, would you allow the design of a ReVi spell that makes use of both the guidelines for suppressing or mantaining ?
Something along the line of this:
Manipulating the Demanding Spell
R:Touch, D:Diam, T:Ind
ReVi (general)
As per Mantaining the Demanding Spell, and in addiction to that it can also suppress the target spell.
This spell only works on spells of equal or lower level.
(Base effect [Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose level is less than or equal
to the level + 2 magnitudes of the Vim spell], +1 Touch, +1 Diam)
This one would be a direct optimization of the canonical spell. I'm inclined to think it would not work, designed this way, and it would need at least a +1 Magnitude for complexity.
What if it was designed like this ?
Manipulating the Demanding Spell
R:Touch, D:Diam, T:Ind
ReVi (general)
As per Mantaining the Demanding Spell, and in addiction to that it can also suppress the target spell.
This spell only works on spells of equal or lower (level -1 magnitude).
(Base effect [Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose level is less than or equal
to the level + 2 magnitudes of the Vim spell], +1 Touch, +1 Diam, +1 complexity)
I suppose you could, like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking. I've never found it useful to take this sort of approach, though, as it caps the level spell that may be affected below the maximum that could have been affected.
Meanwhile, I find PeVi effective as well. Yes, some things you specifically want to suppress, which you can do. But you run into an escalating levels issue when you stack these when you need to suppress the maintenance spell and then maintain that suppression. You also run into the issue of needing to cast two spells, one to suppress and one to maintain the suppression. That's not the best in dangerous circumstances. With some levels of Mastery including Multiple Casting and Unraveling, I find you don't need so high a PeVi spell, which can make it much easier to cast in more difficult circumstances.
My recommendation is:
Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork as written.
Maintaining the Demanding Spell at D: Moon 10 levels higher than the prior spell.
Unraveling the Fabric of Vim at R: Touch and high enough level to end the two above effects once Unraveling has been taken into account.
No matter the magus, I always start with this combination of at least ReVi 10, ReVi 20, and PeVi 5. I find it isn't hard to get enough Rego and/or Vim to reach ReVi 20 so it doesn't take away from my build in any significant way. Meanwhile, 35 levels of spells out of the 120 may seem like a lot, but for the versatility they give they're well worth it.
I'd say yes just adding one magnitude to the higher base. I personally would keep it simple and handle suppressing and maintaining with separate spells, but combining effects of the same TeFo doesn't seem wrong to me.
I somewhat agree with you, but there are use cases for the combined spell that could justify it.
In the saga I'm currently playing is somewhat difficult to obtain Lab Texts even for common spells, and so our Magi are mostly forced to invent spells from scratch. In order to invent 2 separate spells, our Magi would have to spend double the seasons required (assuming they research the spell at the maximum of their lab total), compared to just half of those seasons for reaserching a single less powerful but more versatile spell.
This also means that the other advantages of having a well-known in the Order are not available (mastery books, for example)
Yes and no. Your "double the seasons" and "just half of those seasons" are inaccurate, rounding in favor of your argument. Also, you're only looking at one specific set of levels that could be invented, which may not be what they want invented but is the most advantageous for your argument. Let's look at the scenario differently. Let's look at a few possibilities.
Lab total of 20.
You could make one level-10 spell or two level-5 spells in one season. It's a tie, but the level-5 spells are easier to cast.
Lab total of 30:
You could make one level-15 spell in a season, being the equivalent of two level-10 spells, which would take more than one but less than two seasons (you could invent two ReVi 5 spells as well). They're tied with two seasons for a level-20 v. two level-15 spells, but the two level-15 spells are easier to cast. What if you really, really want that level-25 spell or two level-20 spells? The level-25 spell could be done in 5 seasons versus the 4 seasons for the two separate spells.
Lab total of 60:
You could make one level-30 spell in a season, being the equivalent of two level-25 spells, which would take more than one but less than two seasons (you could invent two ReVi 5 spells as well). But what if you want stronger spells. You could invent one level-45 spell in 3 seasons, v. two level-40 spells in 4 seasons.
