Question on Longevity Rituals

[Sdelear]

Well it would be nice if we could come up with a couple major focuses that could cover LR's. Aging seems a bit restrictive for use by a PC. On the other hand something the boosts a bunch of Co effects...

[ezzelino]

I would definitely allow Healing as a Focus -- but a major one!

Also, I would not allow a magus to apply it to Longevity Rituals. Aging damage cannot be healed, it can only be prevented.

[ezzelino]

@Jabir

It's interesting the extent to which magi longevity is dependent on a large centralized Order which supports specialized potion brewers. It seems as though many people assume that having a specialist create your longevity ritual is the norm for most magi. If you were to change the Order to make this rare or impossible then you'd see a much younger Order in general. So much of what appears at first sight to be straightforward implications of the game rules actually is setting dependent.

Well, a lot more is setting dependent. E.g. if you assume there is little trade, then many covenants will have access to little more than primers in terms of Art summae (and mostly low quality ones!), few tractatus etc. -- and Art scores will be dramatically lower.

[fightmaster]

@ezzelino

I would definitely allow Healing as a Focus -- but a major one!

It's defined as a minor in the core book (p. 46) and specifies that it applies to people, animals, and plants. I agree that it's not appropriate for LRs, though.

[Richard_Love]

@callen

@Richard Love

So, for a specialist who is 100 years old, I think that two Art Scores of 30 is reasonable. He has spent about a quarter of his life on just studying those two Art Scores. I think a character would have to be considerably older, or extremely specialised to have significantly higher Art Scores than this.

Of course, if you're the ultimate LR creator, perhaps with an applicable magical focus and Puissant Magic Theory, wouldn't you be likely to become extremely specialized?

Sure, if you are extremely specialised you might have a higher score than 30 in an Art.

But, remember that actually making a LR takes time. How many rituals are you envisaging the "ultimate LR creator" actually makes? If he makes one a year, that would be a quarter of his life spent not studying, right there.

By the time you have, say, learnt Latin, got to, say, Magic Theory 10, learnt all your other 13 Arts to level 5, you have spent about 29 years of studying. Add on another 25 years of actually making LRs (i.e. one a year), and a 100 year old specialist LR ritual maker only has 46 years left for study. If he spends that evenly in Cr and Co he will have Scores of about 43 in each.

But that is a madly specialised character. He hasn't got any Parma, Penetration, Finesse, Concentration, Order of Hermes Lore, Mystery Cult Lore, Leadership, other social skills, and hasn't spent any time improving his Lab, making a Talisman, inventing other spells, bonding a familiar, or training an apprentice.

@callen

Plus you'll be able to write a pair of good summas and probably invent some good healing rituals.

All of which cuts into study time.

[callen]

Sure, but you're also working your numbers off a point system that gives 0 experience for a year in which you spend three seasons in the lab and the last one studying a book. You're also not including anything like Book Learner, Affinity, Puissant, etc. If you want to nitpick the details, be fair about the nitpicking.

My only point was that being good in an area that rewards you for being highly specialized is likely to lead you in the direction of being highly specialized.

Chris

[Sdelear]

Getting to 20
I am only going to figure out the math for an affinity for scenario 2.

Scenario 1
First starting with a score of 10 then going to 15 using a Level 15/Quality 16 Summa, then continuing through to 20 with a level 20, quality 11 summa.
To go from 10 to 15 requires 65xp
That's 5 seasons of study (four with book learner).
To go from 15 to 20 requires 80 XP.
That's 8 seasons (6 with book learner).
Total to art score 20: 13 seasons (10 with book learner).

Scenario 2
Lets see what happens with just a standard Level 20/ Quality 11 Summa from character creation.
Going from 10 to 20 requires 155 XP.
That's 15 seasons (or 12 with book learner).
With an Affinity
You would need 77 XP to go from 10 to 20.
That's 7 seasons (6 with book learner)

Scenario 3
Convenant with the Exceptional Book major boon, Level 20/ Quality 15.
Again 155 XP
11/9 seasons.

So that's a high of 30 seasons and a low of 12 seasons to go from 10 to 20 in two arts.

20 to 30
Ok to make this jump you probably are going to want to get affinities for both arts.
20 to 30 without affinity: 235XP
20 to 30 with affinity: 157XP
Studying from sound tracti (level 11) this will take:
Without Affinity: 21/17
With Affinity: 14/12

Studying from vis we know will produce an average die roll of 5. To this is added a aura + virtue modifier of between +1 and +12 (or +13, but if you're in a magic aura of 10 you're spending every full moon in the magic realm).

[tableborder][tr][td]Aura[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]4[/td][td]5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]8[/td][td]9[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]13[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]No Affinity[/td][td]42[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]32[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]23[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]17[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]15[/td][td]14[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Affinity[/td][td]26[/td] [td]22[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]17[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]14[/td] [td]13[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]9[/td][/tr][/tableborder]

Magic theory is a bit harder since I'm not sure if we're talking about 10 straight up or 10 with pussiant.
With an affinity with magic theory a magus can start with a score of 7 for 94xp. Going from 7 to 8 will cost 27 XP. Let's call this two seasons with level 11 tracti and some exposure XP for a score of 8(+2).

This gives us a Bonisagus in a covenant with
Puissant Magic Theory
Affinity with Corpus
Affinity with Creo
Affinity with Magic Theory
Book Learner
Minor Magic Focus (aging)
Diedne Magic
Superior Characteristics * 1
Free Study
In a Level 7 Aura

Hitting level 20 in two arts + MT 20 in 14 seasons and level 30 in both arts in another 20, so 8.5-10 years after the start of the saga. (Note I'm assuming that this character is going to have one or two years of post gauntlet XP. If you don't like the Diedne plot hook, switch to a major magic focus in wholeness of mind and body and add an extra level of superior characteristics. (Though without free study this character would have a number of excellent reasons for being in a covenant in a +10 aura, answering part of the question of who would be crazy enough to be in a covenant in a +10 aura).

[Jonathan.Link]

@Sdelear

This gives us a Bonisagus in a covenant with
Puissant Magic Theory
Affinity with Corpus
Affinity with Creo
Affinity with Magic Theory
Book Learner
Minor Magic Focus (aging)
Diedne Magic
Superior Characteristics * 1
Free Study
In a Level 7 Aura

I'd be inclined to make an LR specialist as a Mercurian. The LR specialist with high CrCo scores is going to have a natural affinity to healing. Such a person can charge standard rates for healing, collect the standard amount necessary for the ritual and reap the rewards of using only half the vis. They increase their available vis store by 50%. Diedne magic doesn't seem to add anything to this particular build, optimized for a LR specialist. This gives them more available vis for studying.

One of the important things you're overlooking, or at least not including here, with a Bonisagus LR specialist, if using HoH:TL, is that such a specialist can use two lab assistants, with a Leadership ability score as low as 0 or 1, as well as their familiar. Two lab assistants and a familiar can add quite a bit to the LR lab total. And then of course refining the lab, and installing major virtues related to LRs in the lab.

I have a Bonisagus in the Phoenix game here on the Atlas forms. I had created him with an eye towards original research on LRs to create a ritual that doesn't cause sterility. He has Affinity & Puissant MT, Affinity Creo, the other virtues are related to his background, and don't make him so blatantly specialized. I played around with him a bit. In 11 years, with time to find an apprentice, find a familiar, and using the resources of the covenant, along with time for other adventure he can get to a LR lab total of ~100[1]. That includes seasons refining the lab and installing virtues relating to longevity rituals.

[1] The LR lab total of ~100 is for a 35 year old, using vis up to his MT limit.

[fightmaster]

@Jonathan.Link

I have a Bonisagus in the Phoenix game here on the Atlas forms. I had created him with an eye towards original research on LRs to create a ritual that doesn't cause sterility. He has Affinity & Puissant MT, Affinity Creo, the other virtues are related to his background, and don't make him so blatantly specialized. I played around with him a bit. In 11 years, with time to find an apprentice, find a familiar, and using the resources of the covenant, along with time for other adventure he can get to a LR lab total of ~100[1]. That includes seasons refining the lab and installing virtues relating to longevity rituals.

[1] The LR lab total of ~100 is for a 35 year old, using vis up to his MT limit.

How did you hit 100? I see Cr 15, Co 5, aura 5, and MT 10. I'm guessing +20 from apprentices, familiar, and lab enhancements. The extra vis is adding +13 to the lab total, which puts you around 70. Where is the rest coming from? I'm not saying it's impossible, I just want to know what I'm missing.

[Jonathan.Link]

@fightmaster

How did you hit 100? I see Cr 15, Co 5, aura 5, and MT 10. I'm guessing +20 from apprentices, familiar, and lab enhancements. The extra vis is adding +13 to the lab total, which puts you around 70. Where is the rest coming from? I'm not saying it's impossible, I just want to know what I'm missing.

I didn't say he was at 100 now, did I?
I said I played around with him a bit. In 11 years... meaning if he works hard and stays focused, in the next 11 years he could be in that position. My point is that getting to a high LR lab total is not difficult, and isn't necessarily devoted to raising arts. Making a suitable lab, having assistants and a familiar are all part of that.

[Sdelear]

Actually the Diedne magic is just in there as a plot hook. One of the magi owed the most favor in the tribunal . . . is a Diedne. Not sure Mercurian Magic would do that much good. My reading is that creating an LR counts as a lab activity, for which vis will be expended, not a ritual. (Reenacting one, maybe).

Hum lets see lab wise:
Refinement: +3
Flawless Equipment +2 General Quality, -1 Upkeep, +2 Vis extraction
Priceless Ingredients. +2 general quality, +4 Upkeep, +2 longevity rituals
Magical Heating, +1 Health, +1 aesthetics, +1 IG
Magical Lighting, +1 Aesthetics, +1 Texts, +1Im
Idylic Surroundings, +2 health, +1 aesthectis, +1 Cr
Greater Feature: Pallet +2Cr, +1Co
Greater Focus: Pallet -2 General Quality, +2Cr, +2Co)

Lesser Expansion: +1 quality, +2Upkeep, +1Cr
Lesser Horde: +1 quality, +1 upkeep, +1 safety, +1 Aesthetics, +1 Cr
Cauldron +1 Aesthetics, +1 Longevity Rituals (Note: why can't calderon give a Creo bonus?)

Quality: +4
Safety: +4
Health: +3
Aesthetics: +2
Upkeep: 6
Specialties:
Longevity Rituals +3
Vis Extraction +2
Creo: +7
Co: +3
Ignem: +1
Im: +1

That would give a lab bonus of +4 (quality), +3 (LR), +7 Creo, +3 Co = +17 LR Lab totals

[Jonathan.Link]

@Sdelear

Actually the Diedne magic is just in there as a plot hook. One of the magi owed the most favor in the tribunal . . . is a Diedne. Not sure Mercurian Magic would do that much good. My reading is that creating an LR counts as a lab activity, for which vis will be expended, not a ritual. (Reenacting one, maybe).

No, it doesn't have a direct impact, but it can be used as a story explanation for why he has so much vis to study from later on. When he does healing rituals, he can charge the full standard amounts in ritual vis + profit vis and reap the rewards in using less vis for the ritual, meaning he has a greater profit margin in vis, which he can use to in furtherance of studying his Arts.

[DIREWOLF75]

@ezzelino

I would definitely allow Healing as a Focus -- but a major one!

Also, I would not allow a magus to apply it to Longevity Rituals. Aging damage cannot be healed, it can only be prevented.

Ezz, the question about focii was
Hum so what foci would work for LR:

Healing by itself already is a minor focus.

@Sdelear

Scenario 2
Lets see what happens with just a standard Level 20/ Quality 11 Summa from character creation.
Going from 10 to 20 requires 155 XP.
That's 15 seasons (or 12 with book learner).
With an Affinity
You would need 77 XP to go from 10 to 20.
That's 7 seasons (6 with book learner)

Affinity doesn´t double XP... It adds 50%.
So in the above you would need 103 rather than 77XP.

[callen]

@DIREWOLF75

Affinity doesn´t double XP... It adds 50%.
So in the above you would need 103 rather than 77XP.

While I agree doubling is incorrect, don't affinities add something like 60% on average, less if only books are used, more for a lab rat? I thought I worked this out pretty thoroughly in a thread a while ago. While 50% is a better estimate than 100%, it suffers from the essentially the same error. 50% only happens if all Qualities are always even. 100% only happens if all Qualities are always 1. The former could happen, though is quite unlikely both by random distribution and because of player choice (in cases such as exposure). The latter could happen, but only if the Qualities come only from things like exposure or adventure.

Chris

[Halancar]

@callen

@DIREWOLF75

Affinity doesn´t double XP... It adds 50%.
So in the above you would need 103 rather than 77XP.

While I agree doubling is incorrect, don't affinities add something like 60% on average, less if only books are used, more for a lab rat? I thought I worked this out pretty thoroughly in a thread a while ago. While 50% is a better estimate than 100%, it suffers from the essentially the same error. 50% only happens if all Qualities are always even. 100% only happens if all Qualities are always 1. The former could happen, though is quite unlikely both by random distribution and because of player choice (in cases such as exposure). The latter could happen, but only if the Qualities come only from things like exposure or adventure.

Chris

To be precise, with that specified quality 11 summa and an affinity, a season of studying yields 17 xp (11 *1.5 = 16.5, rounded up), that's a 55% bonus. Although always rounding up, season after season, is following the letter of the rules and ignoring the spirit.

Oh, and that Q20L11 summa is not standard from character creation, it's standard from covenant creation. It's by no mean certain you can afford it, too. And you almost certainly won't be able to afford a second in your second Art, unless several players share the same Arts.

[Sdelear]

@DIREWOLF75

@ezzelino

I would definitely allow Healing as a Focus -- but a major one!

Also, I would not allow a magus to apply it to Longevity Rituals. Aging damage cannot be healed, it can only be prevented.

Ezz, the question about focii was
Hum so what foci would work for LR:

Healing by itself already is a minor focus.

@Sdelear

Scenario 2
Lets see what happens with just a standard Level 20/ Quality 11 Summa from character creation.
Going from 10 to 20 requires 155 XP.
That's 15 seasons (or 12 with book learner).
With an Affinity
You would need 77 XP to go from 10 to 20.
That's 7 seasons (6 with book learner)

Affinity doesn´t double XP... It adds 50%.
So in the above you would need 103 rather than 77XP.

Blast I used number from the wrong collumn on by spreadsheet for that one. Here's the table to make is easier for anyone who wants to check the rest of my numbers.

[table][tr][th]Score[/th][th]Total Cost[/th][th]With Affinity[/th][th]XP savings[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]3[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]6[/td][td]4[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td] [td]10[/td][td]7[/td] [td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]14[/td] [td]7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td] [td]28[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td] [td]36[/td] [td]24[/td] [td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td] [td]45[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td] [td]55[/td] [td]37[/td] [td]18[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11[/td] [td]66[/td] [td]44[/td] [td]22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td] [td]78[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]26[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td] [td]91[/td] [td]61[/td] [td]30[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14[/td] [td]105[/td] [td]70[/td] [td]35[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td] [td]120[/td] [td]80[/td] [td]40[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16[/td] [td]136[/td] [td]91[/td] [td]45[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17[/td] [td]153[/td] [td]102[/td] [td]51[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td] [td]171[/td] [td]114[/td] [td]57[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19[/td] [td]190[/td] [td]127[/td] [td]63[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20[/td] [td]210[/td] [td]140[/td] [td]70[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21[/td] [td]231[/td] [td]154[/td] [td]77[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22[/td] [td]253[/td] [td]169[/td] [td]84[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23[/td] [td]276[/td] [td]184[/td] [td]92[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24[/td] [td]300[/td] [td]200[/td] [td]100[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25[/td] [td]325[/td] [td]217[/td] [td]108[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26[/td] [td]351[/td] [td]234[/td] [td]117[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27[/td] [td]378[/td] [td]252[/td] [td]126[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28[/td] [td]406[/td] [td]271[/td] [td]135[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29[/td] [td]435[/td] [td]290[/td] [td]145[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30[/td] [td]465[/td] [td]310[/td] [td]155[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]31[/td] [td]496[/td] [td]331[/td] [td]165[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]32[/td] [td]528[/td] [td]352[/td] [td]176[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]33[/td] [td]561[/td] [td]374[/td] [td]187[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]34[/td] [td]595[/td] [td]397[/td] [td]198[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]35[/td] [td]630[/td] [td]420[/td] [td]210[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]36[/td] [td]666[/td] [td]444[/td] [td]222[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]37[/td] [td]703[/td] [td]469[/td] [td]234[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]38[/td] [td]741[/td] [td]494[/td] [td]247[/td][/tr]
[[tr]td]39[/td] [td]780[/td] [td]520[/td] [td]260[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]40[/td] [td]820[/td] [td]547[/td] [td]273[/td][/tr][/table]

[Sdelear]

@Halancar

Oh, and that Q20L11 summa is not standard from character creation, it's standard from covenant creation. It's by no mean certain you can afford it, too. And you almost certainly won't be able to afford a second in your second Art, unless several players share the same Arts.

Creo, Corpus. I think there's a fair chance that a group will be interested in summa in those two subjects.

[Jonathan.Link]

All this rounding talk really makes me appreciate how MetaCreator approaches Affinities. Lower the experience necessary by 1/3, don't round XP so this min-maxing takes place. There is never any rounding of XPs.

[Tellus]

@Jonathan.Link

All this rounding talk really makes me appreciate how MetaCreator approaches Affinities. Lower the experience necessary by 1/3, don't round XP so this min-maxing takes place. There is never any rounding of XPs.

seconded.

[callen]

@Halancar

To be precise, with that specified quality 11 summa and an affinity, a season of studying yields 17 xp (11 *1.5 = 16.5, rounded up), that's a 55% bonus. Although always rounding up, season after season, is following the letter of the rules and ignoring the spirit.

This is why the analysis I did took books as being an even mix between odd and even Qualities, having the extra half points from rounding. Outside of this specific case to get there very quickly, the Qualities are usually lower, which then makes the extra half points from rounding a greater fraction of the overall gain. That's why my recollection of a quick estimate was at 60%.

Chris