R/D/T questions

Just to necro-the thread - the discussion found that Re can be used to create ballistic projectiles that ignore MR, if the spell is created specifically with that in mind.

  • It that far outside the typical mindset for a Magus?
  • And to take the example further, would a 12C mindset consider using many projectiles to spray the target with stones, or is that too much of a 20C concept?

It seems that a ReTe expert has a very good opportunity to create some nasty ballistic based spells, which will affect both normal and MR targets. I'm wary that too much 20C thinking might be introduced by this concept.

Always better to keep like-topics under one thread, even if months diff in posting. All good by me!

"Typical" is very saga-dependent. If your SG/Troupe says so, then it is; otherwise...

But in canon, the Flambeau school of Vilano would be very familiar with this approach, and any apprentice who has studied Magic Resistance would appreciate its potential. (See HoH:Soc, p 29 etc)

I think that once we add "magic" to a 12C mindset, all bets are off as far as what is "appropriate" - the addition of magic might inspire almost anything. If the Troupe/Sg buys it (and it's not going to break the game), then it's all good.

But remember a basic (if unwritten) rule of Ars spells - one spell, one die roll for damage* (per victim). A mage can't simply add +3 magnitudes to a d+10 spell for Group + x10 and get 100 d+10 attacks. :wink:

[size=85](* Edit - clarified what "one die roll" I was referring to)[/size]

I was thinking exactly along those lines. It seems a great bending of the rules in terms of raw damage output to create a spell like a mini-gun - and hose the opponent with it. Good to know its considered bad form.

It does make me think that a boosted version of the V's Sling rewritten at level 20 for +15 damage is nasty, and especially if the Magus then also starts multicasting the spell. An opponent might survive one casting, but being hit three times in one round by +15 damage is likely to hurt a lot.

Exactly. And on average 10 of those 100 attack stress die is going to "explode", and some will almost certainly go into the 10+15+ damage range - besides the other ninety d+10 attacks. Ouchers.

(Some SG's on these boards have spoken of limiting multi-casting on the same target for that same reason, that even just 3 or 4 attacks (with Penetration, natch) seem just too overboard.)

Hardly! Massed ranks of archers, javelin throwers etc etc is a VERY old concept.
Been part of warfare as long back in history as there are records, meaning at least a couple of thousand years before 12C.

Very much doubt it. What may be against the "typical mindset" would more likely be the need to up the spell by 2 magnitudes. Since it also requires a Finesse roll, it may not be suited for a lot of magi.

Projecting a sling stone at the target a sling stone, vs a tennis ball, vs a bowling ball, vs beach ball sized projectile - fun discussion. I got to thinking that the V's Improved Sling spell could optionally project much larger ordinance without any change in level; which in turn should see a much larger base damage for the same spell power.

If the magus then wishes to optimise the build of the spell, they'll get as large a projectile they can using the same base cost in magnitude. I'd guess that a sling bullet is probably not the largest projectile created by the base cost for Terram, but is close in terms of not paying extra magnitudes. Wikipedia indicates that slings could be anywhere from 50g to 500g (2 oz to 1 lbs) in weight (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_%28weapon%29). So lets say 1 lb as a base, as its easier on the math (I'm an Aussie and working in imperial measurements hurts my brain sometimes).

There is a difference between baked clay, stone, lead and such as sling ammunition was improved (slinging.org/wiki2/index.php/Main/PROJECTILES), and also in the use of ovoid bullets which were improvements over stone balls and rocks.

It seems that the concept of a sling bullet properly shaped is well within the understanding of the 12C, so safe to assume that the magus would opt for shaped ammo vs just using spheres. But its getting too meta-detailed to stress when the damage is a combination of the speed and size, rather than size alone, given that a bullet can get close to 90 meters per second from a standard sling.

So a 0.5 to 1 lbs sling bullet inflicts +5 damage, and can be improved by 2 Mags, to a rough maximum of +15.

  • What is the base damage for a 15 lb projectile with the same velocity?

Base target for stone is 1 cubic pace, which is much bigger than a sling (far far larger!), weighing around 150 lbs.

Given that the base magnitude is not altered downward for less mass (150 lbs vs 1 lb) then the magi considers changing Target to allow many projectiles, without too much increase in Mags. They have to pay for that increase, by changing the target from Individual (as a single projectile) to +1 mag for a group of up to 10 projectiles.

That all means each projectile can still be 15 lbs in weight, which is a very dynamic increase in projectile size. I tried to dig for an indication of what a 15 lb or 150 lb projectile would inflict, but can't find an accurate reference. A 150 lb projectile sounds far more like a catapult's ammunition.

Even recreating the spell with +1 mag for 10 objects gives x10 targeting rolls, but also the potential to inflict a lot of small wounds at d+5. Even if only an average of 4 hit, the spell has increased in effect dramatically for a small cost. Using the same damage scaling in HoH:S that could be x10 d+15 impacts; with a spell level of ReTe30. Sure that is high, but certainly possible to create.

The drawbacks I can see is having enough ammunition available to actually use that many stones, and also carrying that ammo around.

Which ends my thoughts with an invested staff which casts this spell ReTe30 effect, drawing ammo from a backpack worn by a grog. You could even enchant the backpack (or even a smaller device) to affect the backpack to lessen the weight while it is within the pack.

Then go all out and give the invested effect a +1 mag for complexity, which allows the user to chose single fire (x1), burst (x3) or full auto (x10) rounds to be fired.

Have I broken the 12C mindset yet? :wink:

If the size of the projectile stuff above is allowed, the base Damage might be +10 for a 15 lb projectile, giving +20 when am'ed up by x2 mags as per the rules for V's Sling.

+2 M, not +1.

Only by terminology. You can find drawings and descriptions for attempts at making salvo weapons at least a millenia earlier.
The most extreme and also fully working result of those attempts were probably the Korean "Hwacha" from the 15th century which could fire hundreds of explosive rockets in each volley while being reasonably fast to reload.
The first real known use in Europe of a multi-barrel salvo weapon is still as far back as 1339 with Edward III´s army using 12-barreled ribauldequins.
Earlier attempts with crossbows and other solutions didn´t work so well, but were still very much tried.