Range touch in combat

While very specific to PeCo effects in weapons, this shows you striking a target to get an effect in terms of Attack Advantage and the rest:

There are canon effects that disagree with this, having you trigger the effect by doing things like saying certain words or holding your hands in certain ways while striking an opponent as opposed to beforehand. Look at nearly all the effect on p.51 of MoH.

As for not needing penetration v. needing it for effects, do those of you arguing that the Talisman would need to penetrate to affect the magus with a R: Personal effect also have a magus's Magic Resistance block R: Personal effects from the item on the item itself? For example, let's say you've bonded a familiar and have a R: Personal, Constant (D: Sun, x2, environmental) effect in your Talisman. If you're holding your Talisman at sunrise or sunset, the effect doesn't work for the next half a day, right?

I don't really like that. I prefer to allow the Talisman to affect the magus touching it with R: Personal effects without needing Penetration. It also avoids the question of how the magic of the Talisman's attunements might possibly bypass Magic Resistance if contained magic that would commonly (as a spell) bypass Magic Resistance cannot.

This is Optional Combat Rules, overriding previous rules as a general troupe decision.


Hi all,

Found specific, explicit language on Talisman and MR, on the topic of Enriching Things of Virtue, to RoP:M, p 125, lower insert about Hermetic magi and Enriching Objects of Virtue:
“An invested item made from an Enriched Thing of Virtue can only be made into a talisman if the magus Enriched the item himself. As a talisman, the Thing of Virtue ignores its owner's Magic Resistance, and is the only way that a magus can acquire the granted Virtue. A Thing of Virtue made into a talisman does not Warp its creator.”

This is indeed an explicit, conclusive, but well hidden extension of the ArM5 p.85f Magic Resistance rules.


EDIT: Your find might indeed be a reason for an additional erratum in ArM5, like:
ArM5 p.85 Replace in the first phrase of the second paragraph of The Functioning of Magic Resistance "Spells cast with Personal range do not have to overcome magic resistance" with "Magic with Personal range does not have to overcome magic resistance".

MoH p.51 Talisman: Troll's Wife has three D: Mom effects: Fell the Faerie, Hew the Hell Beast and Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim. It uses, that D: Mom can last a little longer than a (ArM5 p.172) six second combat round.
So it does not state, that the attacks following the triggering words for Fell the Faerie and Hew the Hell Beast need to be in the same combat round, but explicitly states, that triggering the D: Mom Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim affects the Penetration total of the other two talisman effects in following rounds. Its a tight dance around the rules, but passed review.
That's also why I wrote above "Triggering an item to attack something is roughly the same as casting a spell".


You missed nearly half of them, and I'm not talking about Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim. But first, those effects. You said "the attacks following..." Where does that come from? Fell the Faerie and Hew the Hell Beast both say "when striking," not "before striking." As for the others, Night-Time Thunder andVaulting Lightning using striking in a particular way as the trigger itself. You could follow those examples and say something like "this effect is triggered when a being is struck while user of the weapon is holding the haft/hilt."

If you're going to be that picky in desiring errata, even this won't work. R: Personal powers also work this way. So spells, effects, and powers. So finding a term that encompasses both is good. However, If you just say "Magic," maybe people will be confused about the realms. So you want the encompassing term to also encompass every realm. Personally, as effects are built as spells and spells are treated this way, I've never found any of the R: Personal statements elsewhere to be in disagreement with the original statement about spells and don't see that adding to the errata would be helpful.

Hi all!

On the triggering discussion: Avedutus in Tales of Power has a sword with 2 different PeCo wounding powers, and each can be triggered by a word, as the magus strikes with it in combat, the unlucky recipient of the blow suffers both the sword’s mundane cleaving and the Heavy Wound the effect inflicts, without any indication that this requires multiple rounds to set up. Triggering it doesn’t seem to take any time at all:

'When' is a vague term, which a little logic can enlighten. If one needs to say "os et orichalcum" 'when' striking a creature with the haft to affect it with the R: Touch effect Hew the Hell Beast, he needs to first say "os et orichalcum", and then touch the target. Why? Because striking the target in the middle of your activating speech doesn't count as touching it with the activated haft.

Night-Time Thunder and Vaulting Lightning are not enchantments of Hugh's Troll's Wife talisman, so I skipped them because irrelevant for the discussion. Defining a trigger like "this effect is triggered when a being is struck while user of the weapon is holding the haft/hilt" I addressed before as a "a highly dangerous 'mine' type of item, like one which goes off every time it touches something with the right part".



Just as they can be confussed by that thingamajig being called Magic Resistance in the first place, right?

With the erratum, we get

So the "Magic" in the errataed phrase takes up the "magic" used twice in the preceeding ones.


Only because you're restricting yourself to a very specific definition of strike to make yourself correct. If you don't throw out definitions of "strike" that you don't like to force the logic to be odd to say you're right, you'll find "when" works perfectly as "when" instead of as "before." There are other effects that say things like "before." Why do the writers of these effects (not just the ones I listed, but the other as well) say "when" if they mean "before," especially when some of the same authors have specifically written "before" when they mean "before"?

Item triggers are irrelevant to a discussion about item triggers??? Where does any book say anything about Talismans having special rules for item triggers? Item triggers are not mentioned once in the section on Talismans in ArM5 that lists their special differences from normal invested devices.

No, very different. It's not just when the blade/whatever touches anything. Look at the two I referenced. You can touch with the gauntlet in many, many ways without triggering either effect. But if you touch in a very particular way you trigger it. So this isn't just an effect that goes off every time the gauntlet touches something like how you described your 'mine' effect.

If you are prepared to strike the intended target twice "to make yourself correct", first to trigger the effect and then to affect the target with it, you might then talk it over with your troupe how long this procedure should take.

No? Why did you make it an issue it then?

And I thought even you would wish to skip this! Twiddling fingers in a 13th century gauntlet while striking with it, right? Well, at least this already defines the botch results to be expected. But it is indeed closer to 'attempted self mutilation' than to 'mine'. Look again at


Yet again you are being highly selective to make the logic twisted to make yourself correct. I'm not at all suggesting striking twice. Striking can refer to the whole action leading up through the impact or to the impact itself. Why are you restricting yourself to the latter? As long as you arbitrarily do so, your logic will remain faulty. Is it possible to no interfere with your attack at all by speaking some words during the action leading up through the impact? Yes, absolutely. I've seen it in person many, many times and in well under half a dozen seconds.

I never took an issue with your 'mine.' I took issue with you saying "when" means "before," arbitrarily ignoring some definitions of "striking" to cherry pick something that would make sensible things non-sensible, and saying the only way to make it sensible is your 'mine' approach.

Or is it that you don't see the difference between things like "when the blade touches something" and "when the blade touches something while being touched a certain way"? I don't know why you've suggested they're the same.

Does it say you have to hit hard to cause damage? Yet again, you're reading things a very specific way that twists the meaning to favor what you want to say. I've hit people plenty of times with my fingers in odd positions while wearing a fencing glove without any serious risk to my fingers. I also wonder of the writer might have been implying sliding the thumb down the outside of the fist while maintaining a fist, which would allow for several different thumb positions without self mutilation.

Oh, I thought we were talking about item activation, which is notably different than casting spells when it comes to words and gestures. Are you now saying using words and gestures to cast a spell in an abnormal way follows the same rules as activating an item in the intended way?

Still, what you call now the 'impact' must happen after the activating magus has said his say. Otherwise it cannot confer a R: Touch effect on the target. So, the activation phrase must be finished before what you call an 'impact' and I call a strike, right? And whether the magus does some maneuvering before, which you call a strike, is just besides the point of activating the item - because your 'impact' is strike enough. Right?

Now to Tonatris in detail. And I should stress that I hold its author in high esteem in general.

"Sliding the thumb down the outside of the fist" doesn't allow you to touch your middle finger, ring finger or pinkie, at least as long as your thumb is still attached to your hand.

What actually is Tonatris:

No fencing glove and no armor or cover of the fingers at all. But a Roman caestus has tight leather straps holding your metacarpus stiff and stable. Still Hugh has to score a caestus hit


With a stiffened metacarpus I don't even succeed in making the gestures - but with more flexible hands I would most likely hurt myself when trying to strike something that is hard or defending.


No, your logic is flawed. What you're saying would be that I can't cast a R: Touch spell on someone I'm touching; I have to cast the spell first and then touch the target. How did you get that? Maybe you think an impact takes no time whatsoever?

You seem to have entirely lost the point. Or are you now saying that to make an attack you make an attack in one round and then the next rough is when your weapon actually makes contact with the opponent?

The whole point is that the second or two you spend striking someone is plenty of time to shout out a command word to go along with the touch of the weapon. There is no logical problem with activating the item when striking, meaning the attack action along with the command word all happen in the same round.

Yes it does! Or do you put your thumb inside your fist??? If so, please stop. You're very likely to break your thumb if you hit anything somewhat hard that way. The thumb should be on the outside of the fist, and there are a lot of places you can put it on the outside of the fist. If you don't believe me, just watch videos of professional martial artists. They have their thumbs in many different locations. It won't take you long to see thumb tips on the index finger, between the index and middle fingers, on the middle finger, and on the ring finger at the very least. And their thumbs are still attached to their hands!

It looks like you misread your own quote. It doesn't say Tonatris is a caestus. It says it's like a caestus. You know what else you can't do well with your metacarpus held rigid? Grip normal weapons in your hands. Yet we have a nice picture to show what his gauntlet allows. He's able to fully close his hand around the shaft of an axe; his thumb isn't sticking up away at all, rather wrapped around the shaft. So maybe Tonatris isn't a caestus but has some caestus-like qualities, which is why it is "like" a caestus?

Let's for that look at Hew the Hell-Beast, a R: Touch, D: Mom effect in the Troll's Wife again. As an effect in an enchanted item, it has an ArM5 p.98 triggering condition, namely (MoH p.51): "the wielder of the axe says “os et orichalcum” (“bone and brass”) when striking a creature with the haft". Once that condition is fulfilled, the effect is triggered, and needs to find a target at R: Touch within its D: Mom duration.
Yelling and striking in the same round I would believe you. But unless the wielder makes sure to say “os et orichalcum” before he hits, the effect would find no target: so we are here again.

Whether you can first trigger the effect and then touch with the Troll's Wife's haft in the same round your troupe will decide: MoH p.51 is careful and does not say anything about that, or about the botch dice incurred. But in the Troll's Wife we have also:

So we know, that saying "acuere os et orichalcum" when striking takes two rounds at least, and you still have to touch the target once Hew the Hell Beast got triggered.


I might believe a thumb on a hand with interesting anatomy to touch the root of the middle finger this way - but not the rest. Anyway, none of those thumb positions above, which you claim to have seen on the videos, would make me believe, that a normal man could this way put


And with this I agree.
So to my knowledge of anatomy you cannot fulfill any of the triggering conditions of Tonatris' effects without serious risks to your hands, independent of how this "gauntlet shaped like the caestus used by a gladiator in Roman times" looks in detail.


Again, not before hitting, but before the blade has left contact. Having witnessed far more than this much speech made when striking, yes, it is very possible.

While I'm not disagreeing with the two rounds, you're playing with words in a way that makes things look more your way. Where does it say you have to say "'acuere os et orichalcum' when striking"? It doesn't. There are two separate effects, and the first one must go off beforehand. Consider this analogy. You have a computer that is turned off. You have to press one button to turn it on. A quick keystroke will start up the program you want, so long as the computer is on. But you have to turn the computer on before you can open the program. Notice that both commands can be done quite quickly, just like the triggering actions for this item. One of them must be done before the next, just like for this item. Now let's look at what you're saying: you have to hit the power key and another keystroke when starting up the program. Does that really sound right? Nope. You hit the power key, wait for the computer to turn on, and then you do the keystroke for the program. If you do the power key and keystroke without the wait, you haven't let the computer start up and the program won't launch. So, more properly:

Saying "acuere" and letting the first effect activate requires a round.
Saying "os et orichalcum" when striking requires a round.

Why did you insert "root" here? That was never stated anywhere. You're just skewing things to make yourself sound more correct.

Do you consider Ali, Funakoshi, Bruce Lee to know what they're doing with a fist better than you? I don't know the name of the Jade Dragon instructor.

asaikarate.com/wp-content/upload ... 01x300.jpg
asaikarate.com/wp-content/upload ... e-fist.jpg
tikithetiger.com/wp-content/ ... o-Fist.jpg
tikithetiger.com/wp-content/ ... ee-JKD.jpg
i0.wp.com/www.jadedragonschool. ... =255%2C300

I'm not going to spend all day on this. You can already see a whole bunch of different thumb positions used for actually damaging strikes, and in the last one the tip of the thumb is placed between the middle and ring fingers. Then we can again note that there is nothing in the description saying you have to hit hard with the item. So you don't even need a fist that is proper for a damaging strike. Unless you have a disability with your fingers/hand, you should be able to make a weak fist and put your thumb anywhere from outside your index finger all the way down to your pinky to prove to yourself all these positions are easily possible with a weak fist.

Anyway, you need to convince your troupe to allow you to do it in one round. MoH p.51 doesn't help you there.

And this does sound less "my way"? Make your point to your troupe "your way" then! They will very likely tell you, that if saying "acuere" takes one round to trigger an effect, then saying "os et orichalcum" when striking to trigger another effect certainly takes another round. So touching or keeping the touch after the second activation surely takes a third, unless you desire a hefty increase of botch dice.

Because without your pictures I understood your "thumbs outside of the fist" very differently: thumbs held really outside of where they could be impacted by a strike with that fist.

The last picture shows me not only, what you meant with "thumbs outside of the fist", but also its anatomical limits, and how vulnerable it already makes your thumb to a parry or deflection. And you still can't trigger Tonatris this way.