Realm Imbalance in 5th Ed.

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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LOL, but you see, the robe had nothing to do with utility, it was entirely about history, and I felt very rewarded for having prior knowledge and I was thrilled to recieve knowledge I didn't have on a subject I was familiar with, and it contradicted nothing.

Still, it seems we understand each other a bit better. I want you all to also know that I really like AGs work (I use initials). I have my disputes, but aside from that, I think it is beautiful work. I have had correspondence with AG and he advised me a lot with the bit I wrote for SR. No one set out to step on my Landmarks, that was not his intent. His goal was to get people to see that noble house in the same light I already say it in (see the Berklist Archives, May 1999, "Why are their Specialists", posted under my old e-mail name of Dyvynarth). That was his purpose, and he was very successful in that. I do think that he could have acieved the same goal in a different way, but what's done is done. Sooner or later, if I wait long enough and I build good influence, I can use diplomacy to make a change. That's my current plan.

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Quoted in its entirety because I whole-heartedly agree, but because I also think you did a splendid job at putting those thoughts to sensible words! Merci!

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Marko, oh Marko! Even when offering kindness, you seem ever unable to resist the urge to let a fringe of hostility and spite sneak in.

Please before speaking again of maturing, I urge you to read the collective 42 pages of existing threads before tossing something like that into the air carelessly. :smiling_imp:

44

I love referencing previous editions, but I usually like to add something of my own to it when I do. (I imagine the other authors feel the same way.) I felt a tiny bit of glee that I was able to reference Third Edition cannon in that book. :wink:

I imagine it is not widely known that Columbae wards have such a dangerous weakness, or at least it wasn't known then. It's not that they don't affect anything with Magic Resistance, just that they can't penetrate Resistance that isn't associated with Might. Their wards still affect familiars, but not people with True Faith or the Parma Magica.

45

Regardless, getting paid in books doesn't pay the bills and does not make someone rich, which was my point about being a RPG author. It's a hobby, and I don't know too many people (other than golfers) who have hobbies that are frustrating or annoying in the way blindly adhering to 20 years of Ars Magica cannon would be.

I got to use old cannon and didn't have to use it. That's my point. Plus it's about the only thing I liked in Rome. I did not quote it word for word either because I didn't want to force a future author into making Flambeau a psychotic pyromaniac. Serf's Parma, but if you read the original description, I'm fairly sure he hunted down the wizards in the catacombs in cold blood and killed them. I left that out because I didn't think it added anything to the story.

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I like Bendis, but you know he just ignores all that continuity stuff, right? It was a Skrull, or the Scarlet Witch has been deranged since the 1980s, and he just ignores it. Think of this as Ars Magica: Disassembled.

"No more vampires".

We can't all be Kurt Buisek.

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True. And I remember when he was a newbie! Continuity can be played with and reshaped. Some bits never ever go away. Hank Pym is the nut job, and he is invariably a nut job in every incarnation. He went nuts again. And the bit where they just erased 20 years of spiderman history and unmarried him, I did not like that at all. But i just by graphic novels and trade paperbacks nowadays. In comics, it seems that the stories that are not following the current thread are more able to touch upon continuity and history. Read this one about the Fantastic Four in the future. Was pretty cool.

So I do see your point, but do you see mine? Is there room for middle ground?

While I agree with your first point, I disagree with your second. Books are the most valueable of treasures. If you give me a hundred bucks, I will most likely spend it all on books and music. I would rather you give me books and music so I don't have to pay taxes (which I never pay anyway, but that is a different story)

You have never tried DJing, have you? :laughing:

Then I appreciate it even more that you did.

:laughing: I always figured they must have deserved it. But Flambeau as described in HoH-Societates actually leaves no room for that story. I appreciate you bringing it back though, as it is one of my favorites. Like a favorite comic character, I have memorized every single scrap of Flambeau legend.

And you reconcieved it instead of deleating it. That is my whole point. Revision is fine, put a new spin on things, show it in a different light. It is fantastic when they do that. That is much different than erasing and ignoring it, don't you think? More of a challenge, more of a reward, eh?

There is a middle ground, don't you agree?

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See, I'm the other way with Hank. Precisely how many times does he need to atone for being a whackjob. He's done it in Avengers Forever, in the main title three times I can think of, and now in Avengers Initiative, and now he's a Skrull and it wasn't even him? I mean, at what point does an author need to say "You know how Peter threw Mary Jane into a wall that time, and they worked through it? Well, Hank slapped Jan and that was wrong, but he was sick on weird gasses at the time that made him go completely schitzophrenc. He's sorry: they've worked through it. New stories from here on out, thanks."

I see it, but I think that your point is what drove classic Avengers into the doldrums. Comics had to grow up past guys in their underpants punching each other. Ars was revolutionary in its time, but it needs to keep pace.

Your middle ground, that we should just reinvent, is still stale ground. I love the Avengers, OK? I've read them since I was a little kid and I'm in my mid-thirties. It was always about a new team. Seven issues in and bang! the whole team quits and you have an ex-villain running the place on behalf of Captain America. A few years on an Ultron's son is running the place. A few years on and things are back to the classic team, but there's a team out west. The cats changes to suit the author telling the story (like Busiek and Ms Marvel and Bendis and Luke Cage).

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Excellent point, and the Avengers make for a good analogy. Yes, I agree that Hank should be allowed to atone. But it should still be part of his past. The main difference is that the Avengers are supposed to bhave an evolving continuity. They are moving forward in time, albeit at a contracted rate (1 year for every 10 years real time? comic book time is wierd). Ars Magica is fixed upon a single year. Switching from 3rd to 4th they changed that year from 1197 to 1220, maybe ArM5 should have been set in 1250?

There are different levels of reinventing; from the adding of new information, revising old information, or compleatly retconning. I favor the first two, and am saying the third option is not necessary. Instead of rehasing and reinventing old material, why not create new? There are still a few tribunals left to go, different areas to explore, and different eras too.

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Most of the "cannon" is wrote from the point of view of an individual house.
Ask a tytalus and a tremere to tell you about their own founder, and about the other, and you'd get different stories.
Flambeau worship their founder, jerbiton probably view him as a fireflinging barbarian.
If you don't like a particular piece of cannon, just say it's wrong. 80% of the mages in mythic europe probably think it's wrong anyway.

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I was busy last week and have only just been able to catch up on all that has been written. There are several major points which should be addressed.

  1. The matter of what I call "Realm imbalance" in 5th Ed. as a consequence of the drastic changes in Realm interactions.

  2. The ramifications of Magic Resistance changes in 5th Ed. on the balance of power among the non-Hermetic traditions.

  3. Revisions in the new edition versus reenvisioning the Order (no more Delender? I've thought of him as the "true" Founder of the House, at least in spirit).

  4. Concerns that my arguments are based on issues of power and power-gaming.

I'll address the last point, first. I am not utterly opposed to changes in 5th Ed. that have tamped down the progression in the Arts or other Abilities. I recognise that 4th Ed. allowed for potentially unlimited, rapid advancement. The new Long-Term Advancement rules are, in my opinion, somewhat more representative of the slower rates originally seen in the game. My main issue in this area is the short shrift given to practical field experience versus study. This is something appropriate for another thread.

On an important, related point, I would say that there is no such thing as a truly "weak" mage per se. Even the most basic of magical abilities has the potential to dramatically affect the flow of events. There are, however, balances of powers within the setting. It is this latter which I believe has been skewed.

Now, on to the main point: "Realm imbalance". At the heart of my objection is what I perceive to be an extreme "denormalization" of Magic (and Faerie, for that matter) with regard to the Dominion and, by extension, the Divine. Central to this is the deleterious experience felt by Magi (or other magic-workers) when they enter the Dominion. Look at the flavor text, largely unaltered for several editions. Many experience dread, nervousness, anxiety, discomfort, and even physical pain when in the presence of the strong Dominion. Their Gift--integral to their being--is exposed to a deadening influence which wears away at it. Those of solid Faith may work to overcome this, however, those who are in any way out-of-tune with the Divine will encounter the harsh psychological and metaphysical effects.

In the previous editions, the strongest effect was felt only in the heart of the Dominion, in a great Cathedral or other location. Towns and cities were, at most, an irritant which Magi could learn to overcome, allowing them to participate in the wider community (though at a penalty due to their Gifts). They could seek the value in a cosmopolitan existence, and although the Dominion was a force which did not support their power, it was not always intrinsically hostile (e.g. the Dominion of the Scottish/Celtic Church, or in Islamic Dominion for the Believers).

In 5th Edition, the negative force is tripled. What was once felt only in the "Holiest of Holies" now assails a Magus who sets foot within the bounds of a city. To phrase it another way, the positive reinforcement which a Magus feels upon entering a Place of Magical Power is a fraction that of the [/i]negative reinforcement which must be endured within the Dominion. The greatest mystic Magic Site in the world will buoy a Magus up by an equivalent of two magnitudes in terms of what they can accomplish and also what they FEEL. The world is sharp, bright, vivid, alive. Now, consider the dulling effect of the Dominion. In 5th Ed., the negative reinforcement of any mere town is equal in measure to the positive feeling in that Magic Site. Any place of worship chokes a Maga's power more thoroughly than she would ever feel herself and her self-worth strengthened at Stonehenge on the Summer Solstice. Within the bounds of a cathedral or great mosque, her Gift would cause her to experience a crushing weight unless she were thoroughly[i] in-tune with the Divine. Stronger places of the Dominion are even worse.

Consider, now, the view from the Magi who lived in those places where Magic once flowed more freely. They inhabited a realm that was rich, varied, and vivid. Bit by bit it is being lost, replaced by a Dominion which seems to implicitly reject their very being. The harsh reactions caused by their Gifts lead to further isolation. This creates resentment, bitterness, and worse. It makes the prospect of reconciliation less than it was.

Within the context of the milieu, the changes made to the Dominion seem to profoundly strengthen the argument made by Pyrisus of Flambeau in his case, "On Defying the Church", presented first in the original Wizard's Grimoire, reprinted in the Revised version with a rebuttal by Cicero Saturni. Pyrisus embodies the outrage which might be felt against the loss of what was, against the rejection which the Dominion seems to express toward that which is Magical. Cicero Saturni's argument was, in previous editions, more valid. A truce, a state of coexistence might, with effort, be achieved. A worthwhile goal, indeed. In 5th Ed., the prospects for this would seem to be greatly diminished.

I must address Mr. Ferguson directly. Sir, I did not intend to insult you. Andru is a very interesting figure, and though I disagree with him--and woudl note that his views are themselves profoundly heretical (most Magi hold heretical views, I suspect)--I was attempting to indicate how he is an example of how the changes in Dominion interaction would adversely affect the canon. His Faith may allow him to react to the overwhelming influence of the Dominion with awe rather than dread, perceiving something vastly greater than himself. Yet it must be said that his Gift is all but extinguished in the presence of the Dominion. One wonders what Magi would follow a Magus who cannot BE a Magus in his own right within the precincts of that which he would embrace. There may be material in subsequent sourcebooks altering this perspective, but from what I gleaned from the main book, this type of dilemma would appear to be manifest.[/i]

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I've addressed some of this before and not gotten a response, but...

I have never read about a balance of powers in Mythic Europe. It seems to me that the current edition is closer to the relation of powers in Mythic Europe (as presented in the game texts) than it has ever been before.

5th Edition doesn't actually say this.
"Entering a strong Divine aura has a definite sensory association...Those who are pious feel quiet peace; others feel dread and guilt." (Ars Magica, pg. 188)
This is a general effect. Everyone entering into the strong Divine aura experiences this. The Gift (or any other kind of magic alignment) has no bearing on this description.
"Magi and others with magical talents instantly sense a powerful presence, their Gift flickering as a flame exposed to wind." (Ars Magica, pg. 188)
This may be frightening or humbling, but it is not painful or deadening.
"Auras of lesser power might prove a mild irritant to such magical folk, perhaps causing occasional headaches, short tempers and sporadic feelings of physical discomfort." (Ars Magica, pg. 188)
Note "might," "mild," "perhaps," "occasional." These are the effects of a lesser aura. It isn't powerful enough for a mage to get a clear perception of the external power, but it is powerful enough for a mage to feel something. I don't know about you, but this sort of vague feeling of an external power (that I couldn't quite put my finger on) would lead to the problems described for a lesser aura above. While this "occasional" feeling would be a nuisance none of this is antithetical to a mage.

It is not described in this way. Everyone feels the overall effect of the Divine (not just mages). This feeling has been fairly consistently described over several editions. The Gift is not being worn away. The feeling is not described this way.

As I described in earlier posts, it still is mostly just an irritant. The difference is that now it is an irritant that players notice.

This is still true and one of the main reasons to seek out cities. Culture, society and culture are found primarily in cities. Even ignoring the large number of religious mages who seek out the Divine, many will seek out cities for the opportunities that they present.

That's a good thing. As I said in an earlier post, the rules in previous editions never matched the descriptions given in the text. Now they do.

There are two things being presented here. The first is the idea that a mage's self-worth is somehow tied to his raw magical power. This may be true of some mages, but it is certainly not true of all.

The second is the idea that a mage is less powerful in the Dominion than in a Magical aura. That is not necessarily true. True a mage can accomplish grander things in a Magical Aura, but that is not the only measure of power. If you look at the Realm Interaction Table (Ars Magica, pg. 183), you will see that Magic is the least affected by the Divine. This means that Faeries and Demons lose more power than a mage when under the effects of the Dominion. In terms of relative power, the mage living in a city is actually more powerful. It's all a matter of perspective...

On a related note, I am currently playing a pious mage. The character feels the the power of the Dominion is a gift given to mages. Unlike the mass of humanity, mages know that there is a God because His presence is clearly felt in a strong Divine aura. In addition, this direct knowledge and the slight lowering of raw magical power is a great preventative to the development of hubris.

Just an alternative view...

Sit vis vobiscum,

ShopKeepJon

53

As I wanted to say in my post, this is really a matter of choic of campaign.
Of course, tripling the negative for being in a Dominion Aura can be understood the way you do. I agree it can, it's obvious.
But, do the "cannon" setting of Ars Magica needs to be the way you describe it, as a result of those rule change ? I don't think so.
For the most part, the nature of the relation between the Order of Hermes and Domion-aligned powers/The Church were left to each troupe to decide. I think it is best that way.

You demonstrated that the changes in the rule goes toward helping an interpretation like "On Defying the Church";
You didn't demonstrated that the changes in the rules needs necessarily to be understood as something like "On Defying the Church".
So these leave for each troupe to decide how they do things.

For myself, I prefer a practical point of view. I don't see why the Order of Hermes would like to confront the Church, because they could only lose.
Now, if you play in a campaign where the Dominion is encroaching upon magic and feary powers/ressources, it's an entirely different matter. It becomes a plot into a campaign, and there is no point to solve this "Out of Character".

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\Finally! Someone who understands! That mentor/peer relationship between Reculed and Delendar was a very important aspect of that House, and indeed, sets and example for any House!

As to your issues, your primary issue, I understand both sides of the coin. I, like many, find the 5th edition Relm interaction to be preferable. But let me be clear, I find it preferable for aesthetic reasons. Game balance and mechanics are not an issue for me. In fact, these are not an issue at all if the balance weighs in favor of your style of play.

And Arwan has cleverly pointed out aesthetic reasons why he liked it the old way. I mean, he quoted Cicero Saturni! I used him into my own game, and a version of Cicero is the parens of my friend Cliff’s character (Cornelius).

But as to the true crux of the matter; Ars Magica is very much a 90’s RPG, with hippie dippie nuances and all. The original secret masters were not very Christian friendly folk, but they didn’t want to trash it either, so they set it in a “balance of power”. In fact, the reason the Magic and Faerie form two separate realms was as a nod to the neo-pagan gamers that were quite prevalent in those days. Their gods/goddesses got a special realm that glorified them. As for the role of the Divine; Christian gamers (me and pastor Cliff) liked the old balance too, as it gave God his due without hitting pagan gaming buddies over the head.

So the great irony is, as Ars Magica tries to draw closer to the Vision, it draws further away from its fons et origio, its source and origin. Same thing happened to AD&D. It is very much a 70’s RPG, and 2nd edition managed to make the transition to the 80’s. But as they got further and further away from that origin, it lost it’s heart. The 3rd and 4th editions of D&D are unrecognizable to me, and I simply can never go back to that game.

So the best I can recommend to Arwan is to insert that old Realms interaction table if your friends will allow you to. Real quick, a point I would like to make is the hostile and negative attitude anyone who is non-conformist receives. Ignoring a bit of cannon or making a house ruling things in your favor is not a viable option at all. I don’t game by myself, I game with other people. I gotta go with the majority or play alone.

And I gotta hand it to Arwan. He didn’t shrug his shoulders and leave. I have seen a number of cases where a 4th ed player comes to this forum with a question and a criticism, only to be belittled and chased away, and they never come back.

Arwan, I disagree with you about the realms, I agree with you about the setting, and I am on the fence concerning Magic Resistance. However, an issue you mentioned before I totally agree with you on and that I think is worth discussing is the Virtue and Flaw categories and limitations.

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When I first came to this forum with a question this is exactly what happened to me. It took me a very long time to decide to try again. I don't want to come off that way. But...

What I'm really looking for on this forum is a discussion. One person presents a position, another refutes it, and so on. I've learned a great deal from the discussions here. I don't always agree, but a better understanding of the game and how people play it almost always results. Whenever I put a fair amount of effort into presenting my position, and then get no response, I get a bit frustrated.

If you think that I'm wrong, tell me so. Please don't just say, "You're wrong" and please don't just not respond. Explain why you think that I am wrong. I really want to hear.

Sit vis vobiscum,
ShopKeepJon

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Marko Markoko makes an important point which needs to be out in the open: the cosmology of 5th Ed. is dramatically different from that of previous editions. Early editions emphasised a struggle among competing forces in the Mythic world, with the older Powers striving to hold their own against the encroachments of the Dominion and the Infernal. Multiple models were suggested, and resulted in different treatments. Occasionally one would have a "wild card" sourcebook which defied the logic laid out elsewhere, such as "The Hidden Paths: Shamans". Overall, however, the implication was that different myths existed and were "true" to varying degrees. Including non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs.

Fifth Edition radically emphasises the Dominion as the Absolute Truth of the world. Which version of the Divine may be the One Truth is debated, but what is not debated is that it IS the One Truth. A One Truth which has a profoundly negative effect on practitioners of Magic and the forces of Faerie, not just its ages-old adversary, the Inferno. ShopKeeper John, if this doesn't inform Magi of the disposition of the Divine toward their Arts, I'm not sure what would. Magic becomes a thing to be used and experienced only apart from the community of the Dominion. Within it, within the supposed precincts of the Divine, Magic suffers harshly. For those who perceive the world with their Magic, who know it as an intrinsic part of themselves, this seems to be a patent rejection of that side of their nature by the Dominion. The bitter irony is that the Inferno is LESS of an active opponent of Magic than the Dominion. In the scheme of the One Truth, Magic seems to be judged closer to the Infernal than to the Divine (at least in 5th Ed.).

The problem herein is that it quickly becomes difficult to address the issues without tackling religious beliefs and theologies which extend into the modern day. Which is one of the reasons why I've tried to confine most of my comments to the tangible effects felt in response to the dramatic strengthening of the Dominion against all other Realms instead of addressing the other point more directly.

I say again that the magic-deadening effect of the Dominion in 5th Ed. has been wildly underestimated. Extend, for a moment, beyond Hermetic Magi, who can accumulate vast Magical Power and hold their own. Consider the case of those with Supernatural Abilities as they are just beginning to discover them.

The threefold negative effect of the Dominion is extremely harsh on all Magic- or Faerie-derived Supernatural Abilities. Let us examine Second Sight and Dowsing, two of the most common Supernatrual Abilities in Mythic Europe. The nominal base Ease Factor for either of these is 9 in a Mundane (0 Aura) environment. Under the pervasive influence of the Dominion, this increases to 12 even in the Countryside--making the very first awareness of an ability a Hard task. For those who dwell in villages, it is a Very Hard (Ease Factor 15) task, and for those in towns or cities, Impressive (Ease Factor 18). That's for the Magic-derived. For those with Faerie-derived Supernatural Abilities, the impact as even more severe, going all the way up to Impressive (Ease Factor 21) in the cities. Someone with Susceptibilty to the Divine would almost NEVER be able to utilise their powers, with base Ease Factors of 15, 21, and 27 in the countryside of the Dominion, in villages, and in towns/cities, respectively.

Now, keep in mind that these are the minor talents starting out. They are untrained, meaning a base score of 1. Unless they have strong natural Perception, they will almost invariably fail at the most basic of tasks within the influence of the Dominion. In all probability they will be unaware of their potential, never having a chance to develop it. A prospective teacher would have a very hard time identifying a potential pupil because the pupil's Ability would, for all intents and purposes, almost never manifest. Within towns and cities, Supernatural Abilities deriving from any other source than the Divine/Dominion are suppressed. This suppression would prevent the Abilities from being discovered/identified in the first place, leading to a sharp drop-off in the frequency of their practitioners.

This is the effect on the most common Supernatural Abilities, at their most basic level of use. More difficult uses are even harder. The ineluctable consequence is that people with the potential will not have the opportunity to realise it if they dwell anywhere within the Dominion, and those who have any meaningful Skill will probably have had to leave the Dominion in order to pursue their studies. Imagine the difficulty of engaging in any form of Practice when one has a minuscule chance of succeeding at the most basic task, and the risk of botching may actually be higher.

It would be difficult for those on the outside not to notice the paucity of any Supernatural Abilities within the Dominion. Those with the Gift would have a very hard time developing any Supernatural Ability on their own, and if not for the disturbing effect that they have on their surroundings, might be next to impossible to find (this is one of the few things I can think of to justify the Hard Ease Factor for locating a prospective Apprentice when fully 1 out of every 10,000 people has the Gift in 5th Ed.).

Pyrisus of Flambeau's case is thus made very firmly. The Dominion is steadily removing Magic from the world. Something has to change or else only the strongest Magics will survive--and for how long? "On Defying the Church" is a case made in desperation and outrage against this progression and loss of the birthright of Magic.

In an effort to "tamp down" the power of Magi, 5th Ed. catches hedge wizards and minor talents in a very broad and oppressive net. I would contend that in efforts to promote the Divine and the Dominion, 5th Ed. actually serves to make the Dominion a far great opponent of Magic and the Order than ever before.

As for why I'm arguing the point here instead of just relying on "house rules", what's the point of having a common, "official" set of rules if one is increasingly forced to rely on "house rules" to make them work? Fifth Ed. has straightened out some things, and introduced some new, fascinating rules (I rather like the changes to Spell Mastery, and the use of Sympathetic Magic in association with Arcane Connections is very good indeed), however, there are some serious changes to long-established, fundamental rules that have consequences which seem to have either been ignored, overlooked, or disregarded. Realm interaction is one of the most pervasive, and thus one which I feel must be addressed.

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To make it simple, we have just removed those limitations.

And further still, anyone who can make a convincing argument for adding more virtues, flaws or both, gets them for his or her character. I think 32 virtue and 35 flaw points in one character is the most extreme sofar. And that character was one of the more entertaining i have seen sofar, and happily(in both directions) sharing the story with at least one 10/10 character.

Heh, making those gods into fakes glorified them? Thats... an odd interpretation...
Oh and having a copy of 1st edition Ars Magica(and 2nd and 3rd and 4th that is), i can say that there´s isnt much "hippie dippie nuances" anywhere in it(its fiction/fantasy, for goodness sake, its not supposed to be "mathematically strict" or something). In fact, "mythic Europe" is very clearly based on the viewpoint of christian "mythic Europe", with only exceptions being jews and moslems which are treated more equally rather than with the prejudice of the time, something certainly not true for the "pagans".

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Just taking a minor section out of your detailed post - it is not necessary that either of these powers are magically aligned. If they are charisms - gifts from God - then they will be assisted in the Dominion and ignore all other auras. Granted, Divine-aligned powers aren't for everyone, but you could decide that this is the most common source of these powers in your game, and this problem goes away.

I'm not trying to negate the point you are making - which is a valid one - but one of the features of 5e is that these options exist, but are rarely employed. Nothing in the rules insists that these are Magical powers, but I can understand why that assumption is usually made.

(in my saga, Second Sight is most commonly Divine in the general populace. We don't use Dowsing a lot, so the issue has never come up)

Mark

59

I have to disagree with this idea that the divine is out of balance. Mostly because it was never supposed to be balanced. The rule in Ars Magica seems to be, at least the way I've always read it, that God wins.

I personally like the new rules, it makes my players think more and not use intelligo on everything and it's mom when they get into town. This makes city stories much more interesting and fun, without the need of throwing in ST bull every time they want to investigate a body or event. It's just harder to use spontaneous magics.

On a third note, I'm really glad 3rd and 4th ed were phased out. There are 2 little books that are made reference to in the main 4th ed. book. The first is Pax Dei (Tempered auras and crusader auras anyone?) and the second is the Malfictim (don't even get me started). Mind you these are both great source books for history and story ideas, but the rules made the infernal and the divine much more powerful than anything I've seen in 5th.

And that’s my 2 mythic pennies...

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