Recalibrating Ars Magica: 02 - Some Virtues

Games Discussion Ars Magica
81

There are at least 3 Houses in the Order with sufficient organization to make non-adversarial relationships the norm. If you are a Tremere, Guernicus or Mercere, you, your master and your filii are all part of something bigger, and are likely to remain that way for the rest of your life. And oddly enough, Bjornaer. Your master is likely to live for decades after he finished training you, and he probably has intentions beyond giving a PC an excuse to take Tormenting Master. You too are likely to live a long time, and when it is your turn to train an apprentice you are also likely to indoctrinate him.

Under AM2 rules, a magus looking to optimize himself should study from vis, because there is no other way. Under AM5 rules, a magus looking to optimize himself will use those resources to foster good writers, because studying from vis is far more expensive than under AM2 rules and because there is a much, much better way.

I think that AM5 is much better, on the whole, but many of the assumptions about balance and setting are based on that earlier setting and mechanics and have not really been recalibrated... hence YR7's and others' yearning for lower power.

For me, being asked to justify why NPCs get to do this really turns the issue on its head. It's like being told, "You need to answer why those barbarian overlords have managed to established complex societies that breeds unnaturally large horses and develops increasingly good steel weapons when they could just thwack each other with tree branches." It is certainly reasonable to play in a world where the technology is low, and barbarian overlords can self-justify it. But it's not the only or necessarily best way.

For me, everything you suggest boils down to, "D&D3/3.5/Pathfinder allows characters to create or buy magic items for sale or use, but these should be rare and never sold because I don't like the power escalation so let's create obstacles to make sure this doesn't happen." That's certainly a reasonable approach to play but it's a far cry from game mechanics that naturally support a world in which magic items are rare.

My way of seeing things is particular, not necessarily right, best or good. But one way I like to look at game rules is to try to optimize and see if the outcome matches the fluff, because I believe that people within a world tend to want to maximize their outcomes (though they won't all have the same idea of what is best; a man who is smart but lazy will optimize for relaxation. A Tremere elder will optimize for something else.) A match represents (one kind of) goodness.

One thing I dislike seeing is when the PCs do something that is obvious mechanically but against the fluff, so that all the NPCs look like incompetents.

82

If you can optimize, great. I'm not sure I've played enough to optimize. My concepts for the character rarely satisfy their first engagement with the saga. Something comes up, and my character can solve it, so he solves it, delaying whatever "perfect" path to his end goal. This happens all the time. Once in a while the fates shine on him, and the goals align and he gets that perfect season or seasons where he does exactly what he wants.

I've got a Tytalus. who isn't strictly optimized to do what my goal is... She was a pirate, but wants to go legit and do the Hermetic Shipyard. She has a great capacity to learn MT (Puissant MT, with a MT of 1, still, even 10 years after gauntlet). So far, for two years of in saga play, she can't manage to find time to read the MT text available to the covenant... Something's always coming up. Were I able to go optimal, she would have read that book, consuming it entirely by now.

83

Obviously I need a good Latin Summa! But hey, bad Latin was traditional in the Middle Ages so I'm just acting in character...

I'm more concerned about the game effect of the tractatus rules than detailed simulation, but there is a big difference between reading new and original insights from the truly knowledgeable and reading works that may fill in a few gaps in the readers knowledge but basically go over known material. In game terms that would be Quality but in reality it's determined more by the author's knowledge than by his innate writing ability. Authors of popular history, for example, can be awfully good writers without actually passing on much knowledge to anyone but beginners in the field.

84

I don't know how long it takes to read a tractatus. Maybe it takes a magus a day to read a tractatus written by a neophyte. I don't know. The rest of the season is where he uses his Arts to refine his understanding of the new principle he was introduced to, or something. I don't know. This would be consistent with studying from vis or a significato.

I still contend, that the books can be upended a bit, not shared quite so easily, and aren't cheap or easy to make... Under the rules of covenants...
Magus writes the book... one season. We will say it is on a magical subject, too.
Scribe puts the book onto vellum/parchment of suitable quality, another season
The illuminator illustrates the book, another season..
The binder assembles the book and binds it, another season...

So, that's four seasons to write a tractatus and make it suitable for publishing/display, and maximum quality.
Let's make some assumptions about the author to derive the maximum number:
Com +3, Good Teacher. That's a Q9 Tractatus: +3 Com, +3 Good Teacher, +1 for each of scribe, binder, and illuminator. Want Q12? Well, you need to add rare materials acquired from stories and relate to the underlying subject matter. Finally, the book must be clarified through a ritual...another season and investing vis. Q12 texts on Arts should either be correspondences or exceedingly rare, and exist only within a mystical aura, and are never moved. A number of Q11 tractatus probably fit this bill as well.

The Q12/Q11 book requires 4 seasons of time to write/create, by a skilled communicator with a Virtue. Another season where the magus opens it for enchantment, and then has to spend several years in the aura where it clarifies over time, having acquired the final point of quality. And now that book isn't getting moved or transported around the order.

Again, looking at what's required from what a character can do leads to vastly different understanding of what the guidelines under Covenants really allow or suggest... How many high com and good teacher magi are there? I mean, really?

85

i see the real problem. good Teacher. It gives bonus for writing those nasty books and gives a bonus when teaching someone. Just eliminate that virtue. :stuck_out_tongue:

86

Tangent: I tried at some point, but mostly failed, to understand just how long it should take medieval book workers to accomplish these tasks. The best guess I could make in the end was: a season to scribe a book, a month to illuminate a book, a week to bind a book. I'd be interested in others' perspectives.

87

For a simple binding that doesn't add a bonus, sure, a week.

Want that plus one? Need to incorporate special materials and make it a treasure binding. Gems, inlaid metals. Maybe ivory plates, rather than wooden, etc. I am by no means an expert in medieval bookbindery, but I can't see the process taking a week for a book...

88

Uhm, I thought that for Tractatus scribed, bound and illuminated "professionally" (i.e. with ability levels 6+) one had:
Quality = 6+ Author's Communication (+3 if Good Teacher)
That would be 3 higher than what you write.

In other words, you get Q12 with "just" Com+3, Good Teacher (and professional scribing, binding and illumination, which is what the core book assumes by default). No bonus from resonance, florilegia, or the book being a commentarius are required. That said, the +1 resonance bonus from precious materials not requiring stories does require some time and expense -- but those are mundane time and expense, and so very cheap for a magus.

89

Yes, you're right, but I was discussing books from Covenants, since we were discussing building covenants with BPS and people are generally thinking it explodes the power level of the saga. It does, if you discount the actual process for building the books, and what it costs... It also makes vis stocks ridiculously cheap. It probably charges too much for enchanted items and also for lab texts. It's not a perfect system, by any means... It's just not as bad as it's painted. People like to blame it for increasing the power, and that goes only so far. If you make the best book possible all the time, and assume that there are multiple copies of books on those Arts that are available.

The Q10 tractatus that is discussed being made for trade isn't as "cheap" as people think it is. It needs to be made by Someone with a high Communication characteristic, Good Teacher, include resonances, and be put together by skilled scribes, binders and illuminators. The cheapest virtue combination of what the magus will look like is Com 3 + Good Teacher 3 + Resonances 2 (Which must be acquired from stories, if going by Covenants RAW) + 2 out of 3 of skilled scribe/bookbinder/illuminator. Of course, there are multiple ways to get to Q10...but none of them are particularly "cheap."

I view it that covenants just created more enhanced rules that explained how someone can get to Q12 so easily. And then, it's not as easy as the original rule suggests...

90

Check out the errata: you get the +3 for all subjects, even magical ones.

This means that to obtain the "simpler" formula you have in the corebook from the more complex one in Covenants, one simply assumes no resonant bonuses, and professional scribing, binding and illumination (Abilities at 6+, which are nothing out of the ordinary).

So, Q10 could be obtained with Com+4, or even Com+3 and suitable resonant materials not requiring stories. No Good Teacher required, no stories required. (Again, professional scribing etc. would be required, but it's fairly "standard"). That's why the Quality for a sound tractatus in Covenants is listed as 11. Not something the "average" magus can produce, but something that, at any given time, several magi in the Order can produce.

91

I stand corrected.

So...
Q10 now requires, Com +3, Good Teacher, and one out of three of skilled scribe, binder, and illuminator and no resonant materials. It is easier. IT pushes the Q10 tractatus within the range of someone without Good Teacher or a lesser com score. But a magus like this is still uncommon. Let's look at a less teaching oriented magus.

Com 0, and all three of skilled scribe, binder and illuminator gets to Q6. Get some resonant materials through a story, up to Q8...

On the scale of magi who are writing, Com 4 and 5 will be nearly rare, like once in a generation. Com 3 might see a couple of these. I can see magi like this being pushed towards getting that Good Teacher virtue by an organized House. Com 2 and Com 1 might get pushed, if they are interested in teaching, Com 2 more so than com 1. I think this has been worked out somewhere before.

When you distill it all down, Q10 books probably shouldn't be the standard tractatus. Q8 is probably a much more reasonable number. The Q10 and Q11 books purchased with build points are probably rather rare, when you look at it through this lens. They are not rare in building them, but maybe these books were written a century back and are commonly available copies? Even still, if they are copies, they have to have acquired resonant materials and spent a significant amount of time being scribed, iluminated and bound.

The best writer (com 5, Good Teacher) ever can write a Q8 tractatus without any assistance, the average writer needs every bit of assistance he can get. If that assistance goes to the best writer ever, he can get to Q16, Q17 if he clarifies and enchants it, and then, why wouldn't he, so that people come to him to read a book that they can't then steal?

92

Wait, that's not true. A com+5, Good Teacher author is sooo good that even his scribbled notes on loose sheets of paper are the equivalent of a Q11 tractatus.

Still, it seems to me you are subtly suggesting that the "average case" should be one where the author uses non-professional binding, illumination and scribing. That's really not the case. It was not in the middle ages, it is not now. Most authors rely on someone else to do this stuff, and the few who don't are generally people who are good at the stuff themselves.

So, you baseline should be Com+6 -- maybe Com+7, for the Arts, since almost every Covenant of moderate wealth will be more than happy to spend all the wealth needed to "prettify" a decent tractatus. So, in order to answer how common a Q10 tractatus is, you have to ask yourself how common is a magus with an author bonus of +3 or +4 (say, Com0/+1 and Good Teacher, or Com+3/+4).

Keep in mind that, in the Order, about 10 new magi are gauntleted every year (1200 members, and 120 years of hermetic lifespan). And thus, if you assume "worthy authors" are, say, 2% of the Hermetic population and each produces, say, 20 "worthy tractatus" in his lifetime, then there's 4=100.0220 "worthy tractatus" entering the Hermetic maket every year. Multiply that by the several centuries the Order has been around...

93

Yes you're right, forgot that pesky +3 from the errata, again.

No, I'm not suggesting that the average case should be that, I'm saying the average case is that. Not every covenant is going to have skilled professionals, this is a score of 6+. They might have someone to do it, and he may be doing it professionally, but he isn't yet skilled. He might eventually become skilled, though.

Not all covenants are interested in writing, just like not all magi are interested in writing, you're assuming a nearly perfect conversion ratio, that nearly every magus will want to write. And they might, if the covenant has a reputation as being a known haven for writing. So, if we go with Com+7, that's resonant materials purchased, and skilled bookbinder, scribe and illuminator. Most magi are writing Q7 tractatus, then.

That's a pretty high assumption of worthy others, to be honest. I'd say it's closer to .25%. The 20 tractatus per magus also seems high. But let's run with it. There's a lot of writing that can happen on subjects other than the Arts. There's the full gamut of abilities and spell mastery to explore, as well. Turning the question around, how many PCs have written that many books, or as many books as would be suggested when testing 20 versus the lifespan of a magus? Every 20 years, on average, a PC magus with Com/Good Teacher of at least +3 should be cranking out a book.

I'd also suggest that most writing happens in the "winter" of a magus's life, if he makes it that far. He will naturally turn to pursuits that don't risk twilight. He will master bread and butter spells of his, through practice under controlled conditions. Most of the books will be the culmination of a long life. What about the Jerbiton magus who has a high Com and no desire to teach anyone anything, whether an apprentice or via books? He just enjoys talking to people.

I think also, you're overlooking what might whittle the number of magi who can write down, and therefore the number of books, as well.

Still, I think my point still stands. It's pretty easy to make some assumptions and have a less powerful setting. Now if you want to talk about real power, let's talk summae, because, IMO, they're just plain broken. 30 bp will by 3 Q10 tractatus or 1 summa whose quality and level are equal to 30. L20Q10. L15Q15, L10Q20. All of those add more xp to the magus with an Art score of 5 or less than the 3 tractatus on the same Arts would add. Summae are a much better deal, and in my experience, much more common in covenants built with build points.

94

It could be further limited by how many of them are KNOWN to the Order and how many of them are AVAILABLE to be copied? If an amazing tractatus on Rego is written and no one out side the Covenant knows about it, does that count? How many of those books might be lost in destroyed Covenants as well.

95

It could be further limited by how many of them are KNOWN to the Order and how many of them are AVAILABLE to be copied? If an amazing tractatus on Rego is written and no one out side the Covenant knows about it, does that count? How many of those books might be lost in destroyed Covenants as well.

96

This I have to disagree with. Twice actually.

  1. It may just be the covenants I've played in, but we're typically required covenant services of magi - meaning that each magus must deliver something useful at least once every set time unit, usually anually or bianually. Sometimes people contest if a given contribution is good enough to be recognized as a covenant service, but the one thing that has never been contested has been the donation of a tractatus (atleast if the writer had communication 0+).
    So while most Summae are probably written by magi in their winter, there's no reason to assume this holds true for tractatus as well.

  2. It may just be my academic background, but here's how I see summae and tractatus mirrored today.

A summa is a big heavy tome, that tries to tell you everything about a subject - or atleast the basics.
A quick look at my bookshelf gives me such titles as Fundamentals of Organic Chemistry, Solid State Physics or Introduction to Electrodynamcs.
These are summae, usually written by a professor who's been teaching college level or above for a few decades an got up with "not having a decent book on the subject" or "Well, I used to teach using (name of other book), but it's outdated now."

A tractatus by comparisson is an article (or article series). Much smaller work, and much more focussed.
Articles tend to cover a subject so spcialised that even specialists within the field may learn something new.
"Why yes, I am indeed a specialist in semiconductor science - I teach it the graduate level. And yes ofcourse I've done experiments on strained silicon, but only doped with Sb, not with As. Does that change anything significant?" (My superviser, not me)

Articles ofcourse are usually written by younger scientist, trying to make names for themselves, and often little more that read and signed by their supervisers.
Which is just how I see tractatus being used, especially in the Rhine tribunal.

97

Some thoughts on distribution of worthy authors:

If we assume there's some kind of exponential power curve from -5 to 5 of characteristics, we have 11 points in the distribution. Say that 50% of people have a score of "0" and are "average". So we want a score of +/-1 to be about half as likely as being average. (Symmetry across the positive and negative range is assumed.)

Our formula of interest is any algebraic equivalent to:

2*(1/n+1/n^2+1/n^3+1/n^4+1/n^5)+1)*p=1

Where in our case p=0.5

The following MAPLE code gets us some nice results:

restart:
p:=0.5; # probability of a score of 0, this is the tuning parameter.
fsolve((2*(1/n+1/n^2+1/n^3+1/n^4+1/n^5)+1)p=1,n);
n:=%;
(2(1/n+1/n^2+1/n^3+1/n^4+1/n^5)+1)*p;# this should equal 1
p/n;p/n^2;p/n^3;p/n^4;p/n^5;#probability of being +/-1,+/-2 etc.

Results:

n=2.991
P(+/-1)=0.167
P(+/-2)=0.0559
P(+/-3)=0.0187
P(+/-4)=0.00624
P(+/-5)=0.00209

So the upper range (3 to 5) of any ability is 2.7% of the population, very close to the 2% to 2.5% others have proposed. So, of our 1200 population order, we have:

22 with a score +3 Com
7 or 8 with a score of +4 Com
2 or 3 with a score of +5 Com

So this also presumes such characters are even interested in writing books. A character with +5 Com is likely to be a very influential politician in the OoH as well, and may not have the time to write books.

98

I disagree. The vast majority of covenants will have access to what you call "skilled" illuminators, scribes and bookbinders. They are easy to acquire, and worth all their cost. The covenants who don't will look elsewhere for someone to make good copies of their books. An "unskillfully" scribed, illuminated or bound book is the exception, not the rule (or it's used only as a "transfer" copy); that's also the implicit assumption of the corebook.

I think I failed to clarify my main point. What I was trying to say was: define "worthy author" as an author who writes at a level you'd be willing to pay vis to read. Let me stress: an author who does write, not a magus who could write.

If "worthy" means even just 2% of the population, there are going to be tons of "worthy tractatus" around, and only vain people will circulate worse stuff. I think 20 tractatus in a worthy author lifespan is a fair figure. It's one tractatus every 6 years. If even just a fraction of the 200 covenants of the Order are interested in what you write, it's going to be one of the most profitable ways to obtain vis and services. And of course, just being able to train an apprentice means you can crank out 15 tractatus.

So you can assume that the average tractatus that the Hermetic market brings into your hands is something written by the top 2% of the Order (not being willing to write disqualifies you from that top 2%, so that 2% could probably be in the top 3% in terms of capability -- remember that if you are that good, there's a vast social and economic pressure on you to write). How good is that top 2%? That's what you have to answer. Personally, I think a +3 to +4 author bonus sounds fair. If you look at the example magi in the corebook, and disregard Intelligence, of the remaining characteristics 3/84 are +3 or higher; and that disregards the potential of Good Teachers. But this is very saga dependent -- ultimately, it ties to how rare a score of +3 is, which every troupe should decide for itself.

99

I agree with Tellus on this. In my sagas, the vast majority of Tractatus are written by young magi, because that's one of the few things they can do as well as old, powerful archmagi, and so it's one of the main "exports" (together with tribunal votes) of young generations in the inter-generational trade.

100

I have 2 adjustments which may reduce the power of books:

  • summae BP = 2 * Level + Quality - 10
  • tractatus BP = 2 * Quality - 5
    So that 5q15 primer is worth 15 BP and that 20q11 summa is worth 41 BP. It always bothered me that Tractatus did cost less than a single use primer.

The second is more philosopical: what if all Arts were Difficult Arts but some Major Breakthrough made them the Arts we know today. That'd mean that some surviving magi might have learned their Arts the hard way. The primers could/would have been a effort to bring all oldies into the new system. Level 20 books would be scarce and writing a 20q11 summa a worthy goal.