redcap Rilcheau - development

Your scale is way to high. 3 is Average, 6 is top notch professional, 9 is a woord class exceptional expert.
I read your Aexander thread in the Ars Forums (and I was shocked that JL took the side of alowing payers power!). Your argument fails for you ignore how very important officers/principes are.
However....
Having said that, I am willing to let this one side. But you have to drop the issue of Epona's son. And stop generating unsolicited characters.
Please.
Fixer, with your agreement, I want to give Silveroak a pass on this in exchangefor the mentioned consessions.

To be fair Marko, Epona's son wasn't completely unsolicited. In the Wanted-Apprentices thread I mentioned it might be good to consider having some ungifted children around in the same age group for the apprentices to get in trouble with. Hence Trogdor's and Silveroak's new child characters.

So you can blame me for that.

In City and guild every apprentice ends their apprenticeship with an ability of 5 in their craft- how then is 3 average?

I do not have C&G or A&A, no nothing in there applies to or affects my understanding.
Look at Flleur or any PC. What is their average score in an ablility? Count al of them.

We're not using City and Guild, though.

That being said, 5 is the maximum Ability level for a starting character under 30 (p. 31, MRB) , so it stands to reason that 3-4 is "average" for someone in that age group. You have someone starting play older, say in their early 40s, their maximum is 8, so 5 may well be "average" for them.

Once they start play, and start putting adventure, training, teaching, etc, into a given Ability, then those starting caps go right out the window.

The level of difficulty in the raw is what helps determine how skills should scale. A person with 0 stars and some training should pass often.
Scores above 5 are high. That is why natural language is free at 5 for characters. It means fluent, skilled, native.
Above 5 really should be the realm of specialists dedicated to their professions, and who have had significant time to improve. I can't think of any reason why an NPC needs a score above 7 or 8 ever. They're not meant to be exceptional. They're Grogs.

The expansion rule books are mostly to blame for ability bloat/scale too, because the difficulty rating on some activities is artificially high to restrict players: skills like Finesse for Rego magic. It's an out right joke that Finesse score of 9+ should be needed yet some difficulty ratings are in the 20s for some tasks. It's broken IMO.

They have a 5 in a specific skill, not every skill. Training alone makes them exceptional at their task. So that graduate will have a score of 5, the highest score allowed for the average adult, and scores much lower in everything else. So I would say that maybe 2 is Average, 3 is Competent, 4 is Skilled, 5 is Trained, 6 is Professional, and etcetera on upward.

5 I the maximum ability for a starting character under age 25 without an appropriate virtue to help raise it. there are a lot of caveats on that ceiling. The idea of 5 as a 'max' skill ability was broken in the core book, when a 30 yr master with 6 ability should be training an apprentice with SQ:9 and could easily do so to a score of 6 within the period of their apprenticeship. Also city and guild has been used, esp. for Donna.

I am fine with Rich. You just need to gain perspective on what is considered exceptional. There are caveats, yes. These are exceptional people, not average.

No, an average person would have a 5 in their top skill (or perhaps a few top skills), I never claimed that Rilcheaux was average, just that his skill level didn't put him in the names and faces category of top in the continent like some were claiming.

Lets use the chart provided in true lineages- simply subtract 3 from the value for a days work:
simple would be needing a total of 3
the work of semi-skilled artists is 9, which implies 6
the daily work of skilled artists I a 12, which implies 9
the daily work of highly skilled artists is 15, which implies 12
the daily work of exceptional artists is 18, which implies 15
the exceptional work of grandmasters requires a 21, which implies an 18.

So could we stop treating a score of 11 like it was an 18?

I don't have True Lineages in front of me, so I have no idea what chart you're referencing. But are those numbers target numbers? If so, wouldn't that mean it's skill + attribute + die roll?

OK I went looking and I think you are not comparing apples with apples, both in success chance and purpose of the tables.

The difficulty factors you are referencing is for using Rego magic from HoH:S, p61. It is not for mundane workers at all. And not from HoH:TL. The numbers also include a +3 factor for the Difficulty of Rego. I don't think the table should be used for mundane work at all.
Even if you do the negative adjustment should be at least -6 (-3 for stat, -3 for Rego penalty). That turns a 12 on your list into a 6 in RAW core.

ArM Page 7 of the core rules shows the Ease Factors. It contains the difficulty and also the typical chance of success.
After reading both the two lists are impossible to rationalise.
Eg. An 18 in Core is People at the top of the skill succeed half the time, and impossible for lesser skilled people. That is very different from the TL list you posted for 18 ... Which means one book is wrong, or they are both not meant to be used for mundane craftsmen.
In my opinion and I think it's supported by the rules on page 7 - It comes back to an ability score of 5-6 being very skilled. 8 being exceptional. Higher than that being extreme.
Another question is how on earth did the character get enough XP to buy an 11 ability?

I included -3 for rego already, so you are double applying that penalty, and I'm pretty sure not every craftsman has a +3 stat- city and guild used +1 as standard and before that for mundane use most skills (esp. scribe) were considered to be applied with no stat bonus.

I had a long response, but then re-read the thread for a third time. On second view I agree with SilverOak; a Companion with a score of 7 in Leadership isn't game breaking. the character has no other exceptional scores. A score of 7 should be considered an exception but not the skill level of Alexander the Great or Machiavelli. Why? Because Machiavelli is not an NPC, he is a Deus Ex Machinea plot hook. The score seemed a little high, but it doesn't overly matter.

I apologise if my input made the thread frustrating.

I have stated I am fine with the character several any times. Fausto the Grog has Single Weapon 8 and is teaching our grogs. So I rate the character as exceptional. So what, Play him! Play him to the hilt!

Advancing Rilcheaux I have the following:

First I realized that his blackmail target needed to be described as a single agent with loyalty 0 and resistance of 10: I decided this was a Ventian partner in a major trading firm being influenced by blackmail with usefull attributes of wealthy, commanding between 6 and 2 dozen men, social contacts, temporal influence, and a mentor

Secondly I spent the 20 'agent points' at 5 pts/yr, and introduced a non-story agent who is a maid at Bellaquin, named Maria, serves a rival covenant, gossip, and again being influenced with a leveraged flaw- in this case I would like to say she is indebted to the point she cannot pay, spent 10 points on her loyalty (servant in a rival covenant and a gossip) as well as 1 pound of interest forgiven to secure a loyalty of 2 (nearly 3)

I also spent 10 points lowering Ferrari's resistance through dinners and business connections (including obtaining his work making an item for Fleur- an amber and copper glove)

1 season was spent using cinnamon and fir ash (for philosophical bonuses) to generate a sample of smoke oil and a lab text for making more. (and costing 10 xp for a season in the lab) abstracting 4 years at 30 points a year yields 120 xp, reduced by 10 to 110 xp

25 goes into philosophae, 46 into area lore (Arans), 27 into area lore (Andorra), and 12 points into improving leadership

He also gets 12 levels of magic items during this time which he is banking towards a cloak of the concealed intruder

So, feeling spurred by Solomon, Richeau takes it upon himself to spy on Andorra's behalf and thus makes us indebted to him &/or win influence among the other magi despite Solomon.

I like it :smiley:

Yes, this is great, I like it too :smiley:
And it could backfire in sooo many ways :laughing: :cry:

Well done, silveroak!