Reducing Might Score with Spells

Rather than derail the thread where this came up...

The question arose whether a Hermetic Spell could remove (short term or long) Magic Resistance that was not based on another Hermetic Spell, specifically with regard to this discussion, Magic Resistance that sprung from a creature's Might.

Note- There is much here that is left unanswered/unexplained by the RAW, and so much that has to be assumed/interpreted by each SG/Troupe - there may not be a single "correct" answer in canon, so this may be a more "philosophical exchange" than a definitive citation of RAW.

Actually, there is no such mention under DEO, the description of which is quoted in its entirety below:PeVi
"Weakens and possibly destroys a demon. If the spell penetrates the Demon's Magic Resistance, the demon loses Magical Score* equal to the spell's level." (p. 160) (* Note- Technically. an Infernal demon has a "Might Score" or an "Infernal Score", but not a "Magical Score", since it is not a creature of the Magical Realm. What the differences are between (X) Might, Might Score, and Might Pool, and how they interact, require some closer reading...)Creature Might

"[i]Magical Creatures have one of (the 4 Mights), depending on the Realm to which they are affiliated. Might Score... provides Magical Resistance, fuels the creature's powers (& etc.) The higher the Might Score, the more powerful the creature.

...A creature that hasn't used any powers recently has a Might Pool equal to the Might Score. To use a power, it spends the appropriate number of points from the Might Pool...

Might Pools... refresh to the creature's Might Score over the course of a day (unless otherwise noted...)"[/i](p. 191)So, if I read this right - X Might is the max, Might Score is the (current) max, Might Pool reflects powers used*.

(* The question whether a Pool is reduced by the amount a Score is reduced, or whether merely the maximum is reduced, remains undefined. That is, a creature has a Score of 20, but a current Pool of only 10; if the Score is then somehow reduced by 5, how much is now in the Pool?)

To me, Infernal Creatures work differently than Magical Creatures that are native to this "earthly plane". A Demon, imo, can be banished because it is not a creature of this "plane", but of the infernal regions - once its Score is reduced to 0, the magic holding it here is broken. However, a unicorn or dragon is an earthly creature, and that feels markedly different to me - it is not tied here by its magic. However, altho' not specifically addressing other realms, that does open the door to the discussion of reducing any Might Score of any creature (except the Divine? A different discussion, please...)

I think it is clear that while Demons can be banished, Magical/Faerie creatures would not be so effected. The difference is the corporal aspect of their existence- a Magical ghost would be destroyed, but a Magical Unicorn would still be a horse with a horn, etc.

I was always under the impression that Hermetic Magic could not directly attack an animals' Magical Resistance, that it was part of its "essential nature". The idea of a Mage reducing or removing, say, a dragon's MR with a spell just seems a bit off, and it was Penetration that was required for any spell against a given Creature with Might. A Magical Might 50 dragon is, and always will be, MM 50. MR will stay the same, even if the Pool to use it's powers is depleted.

Also, if one were able to "weaken" a Magical creature, then a smaller Ward against Magical Creatures would be effective than against stopping the identical creature that it could not before it was weakened- and that doesn't seem quite right either.

It's clear that different Realms can/do work differently, and interact differently with Hermetic Magic. The Divine enjoys advantages over Hermetic Magic- perhaps the Infernal suffers penalties that Magical/Faerie creatures do not.

However, I can't find anything BTR that supports one interpretation or the other definitively. Perhaps it's just a matter of personal paradigm, or perhaps I'm overlooking something (not for the first time!) - I'll throw the door open to others, for their opinions, personal interpretations, or (always best!) citations.

Opps. Yes you are right there is no mention under DEO. Sorry, I was quoting from (faulty) memory.

However, the guideline that this is spell is based on is the general guideline:

You will note that nothing in this description limits this to Infernal Might, versions of Demon's Eternal Oblivion should work for any sort of supernatural creature. Indeed, IIRC one of the characters in the rhine tribunal at Durenmar has a version of this spell that affects faerie creatures.

I think that it is reasonably obvious that the creature would now have a Score of 15 and still have a Pool of 10. YSMV

I suppose I can see a case for some magical creatures not being "destroyed" if their Might is reduced to zero --- but this seems to be very saga dependent (and probably creature dependent too). I don't think there is anything in the RAW that suggests one way or the other. You could just as easily claim that magic creatures are native to the magic realm and are "banished" there once their Might drops to zero.

I'm not sure what you think is wrong about this. It seems entirely sensible that it is possible to weaken a magical creature and thus make it easier to ward against.

The magical might IS part of the essential nature, as such you can temporarily lower it, but that is all. The PerdoVim temporaily destroys the might for the day, being a magical creature if you remove all the magic it will die. As such I dont beleive Might and Might Pool are connected, that is you can effect one or the other but not both at once unless the spell is designed for it (I beleive the infernal book has a spell to reduce the might Pool)

It is very similar to doing a light wound with perdo corpus, you destroy a part of the body causing a wound, the wound will heal over time. If you do to much damage to fast the person dies. Causeing the light wounddoes not make the person blind, deaf, or dumb unless the spell is made for that.

As Richard pointed out

and for your consideration...

from metacreator guardians of the forest help... page unknown.

Having read the RoP:Infernal, I note that the guidelines given for reducing a beings might pool there are the same as the core book gives for reducing might. I also note that a spesific metod of draining might score is described, and that beings are said not to be able to regain said might score...

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I believe we had a version called Vulcan's Eternal Oblivion in our saga which was a magic version. It was named this way after the living ghost of an old magus that we were palnning to off. Yes,we created the spell specifically to kill him. I love ARM.

Imagine these spells, Ball of Ted's Abysmal Flame or Weight of a Thousand of Ted's Personal Hells or Ted's Burning Itch. Ted has obviously made the wrong person angry. :laughing:
can you put in pre-built penetration bonuses into a spell if you designed it with a specific person in mind?[/i]

Ah- yet another corner of the rules that was not stuck in long-term memory. That pretty much answers the question- hmmm.

I guess I was carrying that as a legacy houserule from 4th ed (or even 3rd?), but the above guideline is clear enough.

As for (corporeal) Creatures of the Magic Realm dying when/if their Might is reduced to zero, I still don't buy that. Demons are not (always?) "killed", they are banished, but it could be argued that is because their "usual" haunt is not this plane and they return to their native "home". While Hell, Heaven and Arcadia are the "home" plane of their respective Realms, it is not as clear regarding "Magic". As I see it Medieval Earth is, at least in part, at least one natural "home" of Magic, except in that other Realms and the domain of man (and possibly the environmental devastation by Hermetic Magi?) are pushing it out.

As always, ymmv.

Sure, exactly what happens to a creature (really regardless of Realm) when its Might is reduced to zero is ambiguous. It depends on your saga's interpretation of the realms, and probably depends on the individual creature's relationship to its realm, too.