What did the Basque people believe their language came from during the middle ages, or more generally speaking, before the advent of linguistic studies? Would it be inaccurate to say that, while the language doesn't fit into any language tree family - and we know that today, and that while the Basque probably realized that their language was unique, they wouldn't fundamentally have challenged the idea that humanity was descended from Adam and Eve, that the multiplicity of languages came from the tower of babel and therefore, that their language was probably somehow related to the first tongue, whatever it was? Or did those christians somehow refused the story of the garden of eden, the flood and everything else that was in the book of genesis? Ars Magicka never claimed to be scientifically accurate. Merely a world built arround ancient myths. If the Basque believed in christian myths, I fail to see the problem for how Euskara is represented really.
I also think the "is Ars Magica too christian?" deserves a separate thread.
As it doesn't, I'd say that even being a mostly atheist group me and my players don't have any issue with that. After all so what, religion is true, which for us is silly because there is no God? There aren't dragons either and we have a lot of fun having dragons lurking in the mountain caves. The way religion is portrayed in the game is just another tool in the box and nothing in the corebook forces you to use that tool in a specific way. I guess that if we all were christians we could have a lot of fun playing a Saga where the players are trying to reconcile magic with religion and end all in heaven chanting choir songs or whatever. We on the other hand dream of a Saga finale were the Order have to fight the Divine. As with anything else, it is just a matter of how you decide to deal with stuff in the game world in a way that pleases the players.
Unfortunately, Christianity (or at least it's apocrypha) is so intimately tied to European folklore that it's probably inextricable from the concept of a 'Mythic Europe'.
While I've never personally had players complain of this, my preferred solution, at least in the abstract, would be to present multiple interpretations that individual troupes can use as appropriate something like we saw in 'Blood & Sand' or 'Kabbalah' albeit less formalized - kind of like we have two different sets 'wolf' stats.
Apparently despite your claims of atheism, to you religion=christianity.
That is bias itself, and part of the problem, because it means that other faiths do not, in yours or the texts opinion, qualify as being really a religion.
The fact that you do not believe in a religion does not mean you are free from its biases.
Obviously! Religion permeates politics, economy, education, ethics, culture, RPGs... every part of society, and I'm a part of it. So of course I'm biased, who isn't?
The point being that you sit there claiming objectivity based on your atheism and casually insult (presumably without intent) every other religion on the planet while insisting that because of your supposedly privileged perspective as an atheist that the bias in Ars Magica is "no big deal".
The Christian bias in Ars Magica is no more offensive to me than a Shinto or Buddhist bias in Mythic Japan or a Taoist bias in Mythic China or an Islamic bias in Mythic Arabia (which AM does have a little bit of, if less than the Christian one imo). It's inextricable from the myth of the time and place.
Arguing it doesn't exist is kind of...idiotic; arguing it isn't a problem, or shouldn't be a problem, for anyone seems a bit arrogant. But I can comfortably say it hasn't been a problem for me at least.
but the question, at it's origin, wasn't even about who it is a problem for, but rather how it would affect marketability amongst those who do not currently play ars magica. You don't actually have to have an issue or problem with something for it to simply be a factor in deciding to buy something else instead.
The sad fact is that I have had people give me opinions about religious beliefs based on a "truth" they got from roleplaying games, ranging from Mage the ascension to Rifts (I was once informed that if I am a witch that means I have a demonic familiar whether I realize it or not because that is what it says in the wormwood universe supplement for Rifts), so when Ars Magica starts defining pagan beliefs as simply being faerie reflections of human beliefs or of the Muldhidun (which are around today) being an infernal tradition, that has the ability to have a real impact on real people's lives, whether or not you have a problem with it in your game or not, and to younger more diversity aware players these can be serious turn offs.
I was once informed that if I am a witch that means I have a demonic familiar whether I realize it or not because that is what it says in the wormwood universe supplement for Rifts
I’ve never thought to look for spiritual truths within Rifts, of all RPGs, but, here me out, I should probably start.
Ars Magica is eurocentric in the sense that it is a work of art that is centred on the historical beliefs of Europeans in a particular period. It is not eurocentric in the popular sense of "based on the unexamined cultural assumptions of (white) Americans", and has not been since ArM4. (There are, I grant you, quite a lot of elements of that in ArM2 and ArM3, but that was a long time ago.)
I do not see a problem with Ars Magica's approach. There is no such thing as a universally inclusive setting — Scion, for example, has a strong anti-Islam bias baked in to its metaphysics. (And anti-Christian, but that tends to be seen as less of a problem.) Ars Magica is the only significant RPG I am aware of that takes the metaphysics of the Abrahamic religions seriously, so I think that its existence, in its present form, is important for the diversity of the RPG hobby.
If there are people who do not like that approach, then they are not part of the target market for Ars Magica. One of the great things about the contemporary RPG scene is that there probably is a game centred on whatever culture you want, even if it is not Europe or Japan. If there isn't right now, someone is currently working on it. This is fantastic, and it means Ars Magica does not have to try to be all things to all people.
Of course, if the market turns out to be too small to support the game, then there is a problem, but there is no way to determine that by theoretical discussions on a forum.
Excuse me, how did I insulted anyone, exactly? And where are my absolute objectiveness credentials and my privileged perspective claim? Also, why can't anything be "no big deal" for me, which is my opinion, with that being a problem for you? Should it be a big deal for me? And if so, why and how?
You insulted and offended me by indicating that "monotheistic religions are true" is the same as "religion is true", thereby excluding my religion and that of every other non-monotheistic belief from being considered a valid religion. So Jews, Christians and Muslims are, by your unconsidered pronouncement, actual beliefs while Buddhism, Wicca, Jainism, Druidry, Shamanism, Ne Age, and thousands of other beliefs are not, being relegated to some undisclosed secondary consideration such as cults, delusions, clubs, or whatever. Whether or not you consider the in game validity of Christianity to be a "big deal" is pretty secondary compared to that.
That is just ignorant nonsense.
"religion is true" is not the same as "monotheistic religions are true" - that reading is all yours.
Ars Magica does not depict any religion as being entirely wrong or entirely right.. No, not even Christianity.
It certainly does not depict any of the polytheistic religions as being false - the beings worshipped exist after all and can grant boons to their worshippers. That none of the various mythologies for any religion is true in every particular in the game doesn't make them false.
Ok, thanks for clarifying the problem.
So it seems that you interpreted my use of the world "religion" as a synonym of "monotheistic religions". Honestly I think that's kind of biased on your side: I'd refer to Merrian-Webster or Wikipedia or any other dictionary: look for the definition of religion there and see that the worlds "christianity" or even "monotheistic" are referred only as specific examples of some particular religions.
Anyway, for the sake of clarity, I don't come here to discuss about theology, or what people believe, or what I don't, or how do we all feel about what others believe or not. For many reasons, the big one being that this is not the place for it. I was talking in game terms. I thought it would be clear as just before I said to be an atheist (so actually no religion is true for me) and right on the next sentence I also talked about dragons being real, but obviously I did not make it clear enough and for that I apologise.
That being said I still don't understand how what I wrote could be insulting or offensive. I'm really sorry about that and I also wish you could harden the skin of your beliefs, so when the next rude guy like me comes up don't make you feel bad no matter what nonsense he says or word he carelessly uses.
I didn't say that Ars Magica made the equivalency that religion= monotheistic religion, I made the point that Ouroboros had done so. Work on your reading comprehension skills before looking for a way to pile on to get in a personal jab.
When he says "religion is true" (referring to the game system) when clearly non-monotheistic religions are not true in the game, even if that is not spelled out in those words, that is establishing an equivalency between religion and monotheistic religions. When service to a pagan deity is described as transactional while the word "faith" only applies to monotheism in game there is definitely a non-equivalency of the validity of those faiths in game.
No I did not.
As I said before, I do not believe it was your intention to do so, but you most definitely did.
OR:
It was never @Ouroboros' intention to do so, and he didn't think that it could be interpreted in that way, but it could, and you did.
I most certainly didn't read his comments in that way, and no, I'm not a monotheist either.
No, he did not. That was all your interpretation based on erroneous assumptions - see below.
I disagree.
Take for example ancient Greek mythology/religion. What parts of that is not true in Ars Magica? The Olympic gods exist, they did overthrow the Titans once upon a time, most or all of the mythological stories appear to have happened.
I am not convinced the word "faith" only applies to monotheism in the game, and what if it did? It is mainly monotheistic religions that consider faith to be important. The religions of the ancient world rarely cared much about faith - they cared a lot more about words and actions.
"it was not your intention to do so, but you did" have virtually the same meaning as this, with the exception that your explanation is to state that that wile "it could be interpreted that way" implies it is not a reasonable interpretation, nd this the only thing you have added to this discussion is an ad hominem attack on me.
Now, considering the discussion has moved from "this might impact some people's willingness to buy the product" to a group assault on my character for daring to suggest the existence of bias which the original person displaying the bias has essentially shrugged and asserted that it doesn't matter because everyone is biased, you have essentially not only proven my point but contributed an implication that the base roleplaying group may have levels of hostility towards diversity which could further alienate potential players.