ReTe When to +2 for metal?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

There are many similar spells that have or have not the +2 to affect metal but the verbatim does not or poorly says what to expect.

I would think that without the +2, objects made of metal are unaffected? Same with gems, glass, stone,etc. basically anything other than dirt?

THE PRODIGAL RETURNS ReTe 25 R: Sight, D: Conc, T: Ind This spell causes a metal weapon (such as a sword or dagger) to fly through the air, safely returning to the outstretched hand of the caster. (Base 3, +3 Sight, +1 Concentration +2 affect metal) Source: Hermetic Projects, 90

THE UNERRING LANCE ReTe 20 R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Ind Cast upon a thrusting weapon such as a lance or spear, this spell will allow it to move in precisely one direction only, directly forward, without any perpendicular deviation. A Rego Terram spell of higher level is needed to deflect it, otherwise it can only be dodged, not parried. (Base 5, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter, +1 complexity) Source: The Lion and The Lily – The Normandy Tribunal, 60

INVISIBLE HAND OF THE THIEF ReTe 20 R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind Instantly transports any single object to the hand of the caster. The object must be within range and be visible to the caster. Objects that are being held or worn can be affected by this spell, and may need casting requisites for material other than that covered by the Form of Terram — for example, Animal for wool, leather, bone, or ivory; and Herbam for wood, rope, or linen. If the target object is protected by Magic Resistance (such as an item worn by a magus), then the spell must have sufficient Penetration. The base level for this effect is that for a very unnatural motion. However, for instant transportation the Rego Corpus guidelines are consulted, which adds one magnitude for instant transportation over 5 paces, two magnitudes over 50 paces, and so forth. (Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 affect restrained objects, +1 for 50 paces transportation) Source: Magi of Hermes, 93

RETRIEVE THE BLOODIED ARROW ReTe 15 R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind This spell causes a small object to be transported from any point within 50 paces (and within Voice Range) to the magus’ hand. Casting requisites may be needed if the object is not mostly part of the Terram Form. The spell’s name derives from its use by the School of Raghallach to retrieve a missile or thrown weapon that has wounded an opponent, even if it is still piercing the victim. By retrieving the weapon the magus has a sample of the opponent’s blood, which is an Arcane Connection that lasts years (+3 bonus to Penetration Multiplier). This spell uses a guideline first published in Magi of Hermes, page 92. (Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 transport 50 paces) Source: The Contested Isle – The Hibernian Tribunal, 62

DISARM THE WARRIOR ReTe 10 R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind Causes a single object within range to fly towards Hugh; he may attempt to catch it if he wishes by succeeding on a Dexterity + Athletics roll against an Ease Factor of 9. If he chooses not to attempt to catch the item, it falls to the ground by his feet. The spell is very forceful, and has an equivalent Strength of +5; if the object is being held by someone else, then make an opposed Strength roll. If the caster rolls higher then the item is lost to its holder. Hugh usually uses this effect to disarm his opponents, or to retrieve his weapons should they not be to hand. (Base 3, +2 Voice, +1 sudden and forceful) Source: Magi of Hermes, 50

THE WIZARD’S PARRY ReTe 5 R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind The caster deflects one blow from a melee weapon of which he is aware. Since the magus actually touches the weapon, any additional effects of the blade — for example, a coating of poison, or a Blade of Virulent Flame — still affect him. A casting requisite of Herbam is needed if the weapon is primarily wooden, such as a spear or staff. Hugh has mastered this spell, and uses it as a fast-cast defense. (Base 2, +1 Touch, +2 affect metal) Source: Magi of Hermes, 50

SWORD WARD ReTe 20 R: Personal, D: Diam, T: Ind Wards the caster against metal weapons. (Base 5, +1 Diameter, +2 affect Metal) Source: Through the Aegis, 78

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The thing that come to mind is that, in ArM5, ReTe is sometimes used for controlling Terram, and sometimes for moving any solid object.

When used for the former, well, you need to worry about whether you've got the extra magnitude(s) for stone or metal; for the latter, you logically no more need the extra magnitudes for the spell to affect stone or metal than you need an He requisite (and possibly magnitude) to affect wood.

Though I'm not going to claim that actually-published spells are entirely consistent with that distinction, even before acknowledging the judgment calls. (I'm a bit under-the-weather and didn't even read the examples you gave, sorry.)

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Agreed but doesn't seem to align with the effects

THE PRODIGAL RETURNS simply carries the weapon back to you but has +2 to affect metal

THE UNERRING LANCE is also a carry effect and does not have the +2

INVISIBLE HAND OF THE THIEF affects objects directly via teleportation but lacks any modifiers. I'd be tempted to say the effect almost does not work. I guess it can teleport dirt objects and with casting requisites so wooden or animal objects and such.

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4

There is a very important rules correction in ArMDE 09-Spells Rego Terram Guidelines:

The guidelines for controlling dirt, sand, mud, or clay are listed below. Add one magnitude to control stone or glass, and two for metal or gemstones, unless the item is simply being moved from one place to another (as in Unseen Arm or either Invisible Sling ).

Do we have a problem here with access to ArMDE: the printed books being trapped by a trade war and the digital copies not being widely distributed?

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5

Yes. I admit I'm still using my old books + Errata.

Does move in this context apply to teleportation?

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6

Yep.

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So none of my examples should have the +2 Metal?

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From what you have transcribed here The Prodigal Returns and Sword Ward explicitly state that they only affect metal objects.

The Wizard’s Parry I’m a bit iffy on since it has the “+2 affect metal” but also mentions needing a Herbam requisite to affect wooden weapons – I think it’s intended to affect any weapon. But for that one I’d say that “any additional effects of the blade” would include the Wound it’s making as it’s hitting the wizard, so I don’t really see the point.

For what it’s worth, Definitive only clarifies that Terram is also used for affecting inanimate solids in general; ArM5 mentions the same:

Terram spells, in addition to covering earth, stone, clay, metal, and glass, can sometimes affect inanimate objects in general. For instance, Wielding the Invisible Sling (ReTe 10) throws all manner of nonliving things.

9

Yes but the effects only move the metal objects so there really should not be any +2 metal right?

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10

Apart from the “Wizards are just sorta like that” why would you invent a spell that ONLY affects metal weapons when it’s harder to cast/create and is generally less useful?

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It might be that you have a Minor/Major Magical Focus, or Potent Magic that applies, making it easier for you to research such spells, and cast them. It might be that your Magus has a certain vulnerability to iron, and so you focus on that.

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If they were designed to affect any inanimate solid of the type that the spell is targeting, the spells would be 2 magnitudes lower in level. But, they’re designed to affect metals, and Terram says that when it controls metals it’s +2 magnitudes to the effect. Weird quirk of Terram.

Also, those two spells aren’t simply “moving” the metals – The Prodigal Returns moves the weapon but also controls it to safely return to the caster’s hand, and Sword Ward is a warding effect not a movement effect (warding is specifically defined in Ars).

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As per DE, even if designed to affect only metal, since the effect is just to transport safely, it should not incur a +2 for metal

To me this is all fluff. It can all be done by a thing moving the sword so not requiring +2 for metal as per DE.

Agreed but again it is an effect that can be carried out without altering the metal itself. I think DE logic is that if you affect directly the metal to make it bigger or lighter or turn it to water, then you need the +2.

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14

The Prodigal Returns is returning the weapon safely to the caster’s hands… without a Finesse roll. That’s not “simply being mov[ing] from one place to another”. It probably needs extra Magnitude(s) for getting rid of the Finesse roll.

Warding is not at all “simply being moved from one place to another“.

Definitive’s clarification is that anything that is not “simply being moved from one place to another” incurs the +2 magnitudes to affect metal. There is absolutely nothing in there about “altering the metal.” Which is an application for Muto, not Rego; that exception would not apply to Muto effects anyway.

Edit: On further thought, needing a Finesse roll might be a good litmus test for whether “simply moving from one place to another” applies. Offhand, I can’t think of a Hermetic effect for simple movement that shouldn’t have a Finesse roll… may be some edge case I’m missing, though.

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15

Warding is a different one indeed. It's more about moving away the other object as you would defending with a sword or a shield.

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You are aware that HoH:S p.38 and ArMDE 09-Spells Invisible Sling of Vilano needs a Finesse roll for aiming, and that nevertheless we have in ArMDE explicitly:

The guidelines for controlling dirt, sand, mud, or clay are listed below. Add one magnitude to control stone or glass, and two for metal or gemstones, unless the item is simply being moved from one place to another (as in Unseen Arm or either Invisible Sling ).

17

Yes? Invisible Sling needs a Finesse roll and falls under the “simply being moved” category, which I why I said that needing a Finesse roll is a good litmus test for “simply being moved.” Manipulating something with Unseen Arm should need a Finesse roll, teleporting objects should need a Finesse roll; those are also “simply being moved” effects.

18

ArMDE Spells-9 Wielding the Invisible Sling has been corrected to:

Hurls any nearby object that could normally be thrown by a person at any target within range. The object must not be held down or otherwise restrained. Damage depends on the object thrown, up to +5 for a fist-sized stone. The object always hits, but it is resisted by Magic Resistance. Casting requisites of an appropriate Form for the target are required.

So we also have a spell mentioned in the ArMDE ReTe guideline change above which does explicitly not need a Finesse roll to hit.

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19

Now I'm confused.

The DE guideline says "Add one magnitude to control stone or glass, and two for metal or gemstones, unless the item is simply being moved from one place to another (as in Unseen Arm or either Invisible Sling)." - This sounds like "Wielding the Invisible Sling" does not require an additional magnitude for stone.

However, "Wielding the Invisible Sling" is level 10 (Base 4, +2 Voice) - and there is no matching Level 4 Guideline. I always assumed this was Level 3: Control or move dirt in a very unnatural fashion, with an added magnitude to control stone. If this is not the case, what's the level 4 guideline used here? Or did the newly added “unless"-condition in the guideline introduce an inconsistency?

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20

Legacy spell, it needs to be Level 10 and produce that effect since that was what it did in prior editions.

Also you can add +1 Mag for great precision or speed.

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