Marko, you asked me to reserve debates for the public forum. I'm going to ask that you present reasoned and cogent arguments against my proposal rather than, it's your saga, and making stuff up on the spot (it feels like you are grasping at straws). I've spent a lot of time on this, just like you spent a lot of time developing your hermetic economy and post gauntlet advancement rules. I haven't criticized them, nor have you invited criticism, but I would at least try and provide a reasoned and cogent argument if you did ask. I wouldn't answer with something like, "I don't like them because they produce insanely powerful characters, but it's your saga, whatev." It feels like you did that initially, although you also said I was unfair and hinted it was punitive to the players, which I refuted and you never responded to. Now we are discussing edge cases and, IMO, really unlikely ones even under the current method of Ritual magic.
The issue that bugs me the most is treating the casting of "Greater" Ritual Magic as a seasonal (lab?) activity, particularly the Aegis.
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If Rituals become a seasonal activity, do the distraction rules come into play for them, to keep things consistent?
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A covenant that loses its Aegis should then lose it for a whole season while a new one is worked up - Imagine the fate of a Durenmar suddenly lacking its Aegis for a season with the King Fir of the Black Forest waiting in the wings. What about a covenant in the Normandy Tribunal? The three moons of a season is more than enough to learn of the lost Aegis and announce and execute a covenant wide Wizard's War against the unprotected magi and their home.
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Timing - Is a spell like "Wrath of Whirling Winds and Water" (core book p126) a Greater Ritual or a Lesser one? Its power level certainly seems "Greater" but if it is how do you get it to happen when you want it to if it's a seasonal activity?
Definitely!
No, there is a lab text for the Aegis already, it can be performed by someone who can handle the vis requirements, Vim score=Aegis magnitude. They would be unprotected for a few hours. One of the things that I haven't yet posted, are ways to improve rituals, similar to customizing one's lab. One of the virtues installed is hardening it, making it more difficult to take down. I'm not entirely comfortable with what I've done yet to present it. I'm about ready to present, anyway, because I'm kind of stuck and more eyes, or defending it might help me break the logjam of creativity.
Why does it seem Greater? It doesn't have D:Momentary and improve something beyond its initial condition, nor does it have D:Year or T:Boundary, without any of those it would be a lesser ritual. Part of my challenge with lesser rituals, is that they take a huge amount of time to pull off, this one takes 2 hours, and it has to be done in sight range, so if you can see where you want that spell, so can any intended targets in that area see you, and 2 hours is a long time...
Well, I don't recal having often brought my HR's to forum seeking input or approval. Mainly because it is my saga, so whatever. I have brought a few rulings to the forum over the years, very few (and I don't remember what), to either poke holes in the idea or to shoot it down. I do pick up ideas from forum and bring them to my saga. For example, I am working on a new Confidence rule. No discussion here though, I gave it to my troupe to mull over.
Your idea, you are asking for input and advice for your idea. My advice is not to do it. But again, if you have players already lined up and they can dig it, go for it.
I told you why I don't like it and even presented an alternative. Neither are enough and you request more. Not sure what you are looking for.
A phrase you often tout is that "it is a feature not a bug", and I say thee nay. A feature? A feature to do what? Slow players down? Hamper them?
in a RAW game without any HR's, I as a player want the option to cast an Aegis in the field. I want to be able to conjure a serendipitous tower. I want to turn vis into emergency rations. I want to create a sword if I find myself unarmed and ritually create it so Penetration is not an issue.
What of Spellbinding and Hermetic Empowerment? Why spend a season creating a tower when I can use a Diameter version and perpetuate it indefinately? Why spend three seasons boosting a stat when I can (if my arts are high enough) enchant a single empowered item to do it all at once? Or design it to cast an Aegis whenever wherever? Why spend a season on each and every Aegis when I can create an item in one or two seasons that can do that for me five times?
And as for the Aegis lasting years, not liking that either. The annual Aegis at the start of the new year on the Winter Solstice, it is a part of covenant culture I am used to. I don't always invoke the annual meeting to be played out, but sometimes I do and I like having that option.
There is an endless rabbit hole of reasons I do not like the idea. But as I have told others in different debates, you don't need my approval. And it ain't ever gonna happen with this idea. So whatever. Have fun.
Because it might better fit in the next edition of Ars Magica? And then you will hate it, just like how you hate that the Flambeau were changed.
You presented an alternative that was even more costly than the original proposal. You say that my method slows players down, but at least three times I have demonstrated how it does no such thing, and while I have demonstrated it doesn't slow down or hamper or punish players, you haven't said how I am doing any of those things. Heck, there's even a ginormous loophole, in that if a new covenant settles the old grounds of the covenant they could bring an Aegis up, if and when they find the lab text for that old covenant. That's even better than inventing one from the lab text.
I'm not going to speak to Spellbinding and Hermetic Empowerment, because it is your rabbit hole. You continue to assume, for some reason that casting the Aegis takes a season every single year. It does not. And I've said it about three times to you, and once earlier. And I've never said that the Aegis lasts for years. I've said it may be maintained annually. As in pay the vis cost as in casting it. So, what I'm doing is enshrining the practice that the Aegis is a bookkeeping exercise, making the costs for implementing the Aegis exactly the same (you learn it in a season, then cast it after learned vs. you invent it in a season then cast it after learned). You seem to be just like Mr. Trollman, who gets an idea in his head and then don't admit it when he's wrong.
And when wrong and when demonstrated to be wrong, you continue to post on why you don't like it, but the tenuous reasons for disliking it have been demonstrated to be incorrect. Instead of seeking to understand what is going on (because you obviously know what I'm doing, despite what you are saying about what I'm doing being inaccurate), you continue with your false and incorrect understanding. So Marko, please, debate me if you wish, but at least do it based on a foundation of what has been presented here, and if something isn't clear, ask for clarification. But don't bring up a bunch of red herrings and expect me to chase after them.
I mean, your latest thing about the Aegis lasting several years, is something I mentioned in another thread, and briefly mentioned here that I was not a fan of and abandoned. You are grasping at straws, brosef. For the last time, what I'm doing is not punitive, does not slow players down (even demonstrated how it might be faster for a certain case) and effectively enshrines within the setting what you already do in practice. Casting the Aegis is a risk free operation, and maintaining it is a logistics/bookkeeping exercise where you keep feeding it vis, annually. How is that any different, in practice than how you handle the Aegis? Can you answer that without going on an explanation about things that do not pertain to the subject (Spellbinding and Hermetic empowerment). Does anyone do an Aegis as you describe? Your cases seem to go further and further afield from the discussion in order to prove something, but I'm not sure what it is.
Yeah. I think it is the other way around. i have demonstrated my point multiple times and you choose to pretend it ain't there.
I will simplify it.
There are many things I can do in RAW that I can not do using your system. Things that as a player I would want to do. these include...
- Casting an Aegis in the field where and when I need it
- Conjure emergency rations
- Create a sword not subject to MR while locked in a dungeon overnight
- Conjure a permenant tower that fits the logistical needs of that day
Making it so I cannot do things I normally could do is, by definition, restricting and hampering me.
If I was more active and vocal back in the day, maybe House Flambeau would have not changed (and I have made progress reversing that). So now if you are saying your goal is to get this idea adoped into a new edition, I feel obligated to fight it tooth and nail.
Hi,
I'm with Marko on this: I think he has presented interesting strategic options for the use of rituals that would be lost.
The idea of setting up an Aegis in the field, so very Roman, like a legion setting up camp. Grogs and mounts are vulnerable to magic? An invisible Tremere scout sets up a decent Aegis on tomorrow's battlefield and his sodali teleport an army in. Surprise! (Or do it by day: The Terram engineering unit circumvallates a city or region, creating both an obstacle and a Boundary, which is then used for the ritual. And then.... army. I would definitely consider this casting stressful!!! This is why I like deprecating Divine intervention: I'd rather have a few magi accompany that Crusade.)
I really don't see a big gain by preventing this. He's making it up on the spot? That's the kind of thing that powerful magi should be able to pull out of a hat.
But what the heck. Far be it from me to suggest that someone avoid playing with house rules.
Anyway,
Ken
I stipulate that the field Aegis isn't possible, but then it's not your Hearth, is it? The very first line of the spell description is "...protects a covenant..." I'll stipulate that creating a permanent building in the middle of nowhere isn't possible, but is that truly desirable? I think he presents a valid counterargument to my proposal with the Aegis, less so with the tower, and a ridiculous premise with the other two options, which I outline below. Do I think these get cast in the field now? No, not really, and you cite the botch dice issue, definitely not something to be handwaved away, if it were done now. Marko also plays/runs a saga where the Aegis doesn't need to penetrate, so someone can pull off an Aegis 20 really easy. I find the field Aegis idea, for Marko a bit interesting, because he's a strong offense kind of guy, who wouldn't need a field Aegis.... so...
The examples of creating emergency rations and a sword are extreme edge cases which have unlikely presumptions as their basis: 1) vis is available and wasn't lost or confiscated when the food was lost or confiscated, and 2) the spell is known by the magus already. The sword in the locked dungeon idea suffers from that, and the presumption that the caster is free to move about and work his ritual, and would not alert his captors in his hour's worth of chanting. Could these happen now under RAW? It's possible. It's also possible someone might invent flying pigs.
The idea of creating a permanent tower for what will likely be a temporary encampment is a bit ridiculous. A D:Moon house would probably just as effective, and about the same level.It certainly doesn't need to be elaborate in design, it needs to be functional, so dropy +3 for that, and add +3 for design, and then shrink the size down a bit. And what do you know, my version of House Tremere has magi who know the spell and can cast it easily. Granted, they would lose the field Aegis, but nothing else.
Hi,
For consistency, an Aegis should Penetrate, yeah.
Marko's post isn't what pulled me off the fence on this one; I simply agree with him that your suggestion seems to provide limitations rather than options.
Every now and then, a handwave makes good sense in a game. "Don't bother rolling dice, Anakin, you slaughter all the younglings." Handwaving time happens even in real life: If I need to catch the 7:29 to NYC, seconds count. Do I have an extra few rounds to go to the kitchen, open the refrigerator, grab something suitable... On a normal day in California, for me, time still passes at 1s/s, but I don't need to really think about it beyond "I need to get to work this morning."
I don't feel a need to fight you tooth and nail on this one (lucky for you, because I have strong, sharp nails!) but I don't see that your rules simplify things or add options or make the game feel more mythic or more medieval.
And that's ok. Our aesthetics differ. Shock!
Anyway,
Ken
And that's a fair point, to say that I don't like it because of aesthetic reasons. Where I've challenged Marko is that he has described it as being unfair to players. In my experience, which is different than his, and probably different than yours, No one casts a field Aegis. No one springs up a tower as a secondary base of operations, for a day. If a tower is going to be constructed, if 7 pawns of vis is going to be spent, it's going to involve a lot of magi, because that's a lot of vis. If a single magus has that much vis at his disposal and wants to spend it that way, it's a bit different, but it usually doesn't happen like that. That 7 pawns of vis is better spent making an item that can conjure stone forts for D:Moon multiple times per day than it is to create a single mystical tower.
Ken's final statement is my main point. Your saga, your rules. Have Fun!
I don't desire to fight you over HRs. The goal of making the idea a new standard, it is that which I oppose you on.
My examples may not fit your play style, but they fit mine. They are all isues that have come uo in my Ars Magica experience (albiet, some dating back to 4th ed when you could simply "boost" spells to Instant/Permenant, and requiring them to be rituals was once an issue with me).
Not requiring Aegis Penetration is my thing, not a rule I advocate to the general public. Handwaving the Aegis is simply a matter of making bookkeeping easier so I can focus on other stuff. PbP is a time consuming hobby. Especially when you type every post and format symbols out on a Blackberry style phone.
Hi,
You're probably right about creating an item to build a monthly rental 
. If vis is in short supply, a charged item might be even better.
Aesthetics are important!
Anyway,
Ken
And you oppose me on really extreme edge cases, with some give on the Aegis, everything else is really extreme, and probably better and more easily handled another way. i'm playing in hangout sagas and we hand wave the Aegis. It's not that you hand wave the Aegis, it's that everyone hand waves the Aegis. Many rituals are hand waved, until they are not, and then you have a huge difference between them not being risky (because they were hand waved) and now they are like handling nuclear waste. It would be great to have something that didn't exist at the extremes. And doesn't feel "cheap" in Mastery 1 mitigates all botch dice, because I always cast my rituals relaxed, like the Most Interesting Man in the World would.
And, like you don't need my permission to have fun in your saga, I don't need your permission to have fun in my sagas.
Heck, even if vis isn't in short supply, it's a great idea!
I meant "anywhere" as in "any lab not on location".
Probably not, which is why nobody mentioned this issue before I pointed it out.
Ahh. Well, it is a fair point. Despite comments to the contrary it feels more mythic to me. Seems like you shouldn't be able to bend the energies of any place into a defensive structure, without actually studying the structure.
It's definitely a possibility, it does preclude some of the idea of hiring specialists coming to cast a spell, like CtMT, but I'm not sure that happens all that often, either. I know what I'm suggesting here could be improved.
I am not in favour of an overhaul of the ritual magic. It needs a little bit of fixing in some specific area, but not a whole overhaul.
For me, the main issue is the botch / handwave aspect of the Aegis. I believe, until there is an official ruling, I would go with the rule (house rule) that one mastery level + relax casting remove the need for stress roll (not only for Aegis, but for any ritual).
Regarding the aspect of the need for more "grandiose" rituals, I am against it for flavour and background reasons as well as mechanical aspects:
- My understanding of Bonisagus' work was a synthesis of every traditions he could tapped it. He tried to take the best of each to design a practical magic which would suit single magus as cult magic was becoming impractical (dwinddling member numbers, due to traditions disappearing/being hunted down). There is enough proof to suggest that despite his genius, it is still an incomplete work (some "soft limits" that can be overcome by other traditions like the limit of Energy, granting virtues, the flaw that every Verditius magus has despite 400 years of integration, etc.). Thus I feel that the impossibility to perform Greater ritual (as House guernicus secret rituals) within the frame of hermetic theory is one of these flaw, that should remain until the proper Breakthrough is done.
- Although Hermetic society is based on covenant, it is more a group of colleagues than friends that's making the core of a covenant. Magi from the same covenants are sharing some common interests - otherwise they would not settle together - but it is far from being a tight group of trusted friends. Having a single magus able to cast the all important Aegis (of even hiring one from another covenant) goes into this direction of "friends by necessity". More paranoid/caerful magi might decide to learn and master the Aegis to prevent having to rely too much on such and such magus.
- Making rituals always a season-long, group activity will change subtlely the Order society: covenants will gravitate more towards small, individual cults - that's my feel, no data to back up that
- As Marko pointed out, I want my magus to be self relient if he has enough virtus on his hand: casting tower on the spot he want to settle, being able to have fertile lands, healing a friend in dire need. Season-long rituals are more troublesome and reduce/limit the play options.
I have other issues with some rituals (namely stat boosting spells) but I don't think season-long rituals is the solution (so far my take was to remove the ritual component, remove the inst duration and shift it to Sun, but keep the same level): it significantly increases the warping contribution, thus are used only when really needed.
sigh
Not all rituals would take a season, healing would still happen as it does now.
I know, I have read the whole thread. Looking forward on your take on the lesser ritual and the criteria used to differentiate greater from lesser ritual.
I will also elaborate.
I do not want to see more types of spells. There are already quite a lot: Spontaneous, formulaic, ritual. With the added twist of ceremonial casting option. My players have already a hard time not mixing all of them, despite playing since a few years. I have about half of my players who don't mind having no spontaneous spels at alll as it disrupt too much the game flow of finding the right Base spell + various parameters.
It may not be a statistical significant number of players (over a several years, a dozen), but I am giving my feedback with what I face every other week (our game schedule).
Compounded with the rules for magical item (consumable, lesser, invested), longevity potion, familiar... all of them looking the same, yet with slightly different rules or parameters to consider... I am not keen on having to force feed another concept to my players.
To summarise it, the Incremental value of such change is not worth the trouble for my Sagas. It does not look like a lot when you know most of RAW by heart, but my players (I am sure they are not the only one), sit at the table, remember more or less what was the last session and want to hit the story ASAP. They know how formulaic spells total are calculated, everything other rules I usually need to remind them. It breaks the flow of the story telling. For them ritual magic = formulaic, longer with virtus. That's it, and that's good enough for me.
The only thing I would consider is this more elaborate route for Aegis than you are mentionning, to be handled as a lab that can be improved. Since Aegis is anyway an oddity in the Hermetic Theory, it could thematically fit to have something special. Yet, the extra complexity should be worth the added value it brings to the Saga.
There is no need to rely upon the original caster/inventor of the Aegis to keep it running, if you can handle the requisite number of pawns of vis, you can keep it running.
It's not a group activity, it's an activity of the individual to design it. At best, the group activity for the Aegis is maintaining it. If a group is involved in the initial casting, and subsequent maintenance, it can be strengthened. And it can be done with one individual, as long as he can use that much of the Technique or Form vis. As it is now, every covenant must have some sort of Rego or Vim or both specialist, unless the Aegis doesn't penetrate. Wizard's Communion 20 requires someone with decent muto, vim or magic theory and a decent aura.
And as I pointed out, it's a myth. There really isn't a self-reliant mage. If there were, there would be no need for a party, and there would be no need for a covenant. Rather any self-reliant mage wouldn't be involved in a covenant (think Maris of Tytalus from MoH). Roberto (his character) wants to cast a tower in a location, he can do it, and not let it be permanent, drop elaborate design, increase D:Moon and it's the same level spell. If you want to settle some place, it's a completely different scenario than Marko was doing. So that's not reducing play options, I mean, you can now do it without vis! That's opening play options. Roberto wants to create a sword because he's been locked away in a dungeon, but he has his vis on him? And he knows a spell to create a sword? And he can chant for an hour to make that sword? This one doesn't make sense, because if he wanted a sword free of MR, he was taken by someone/something that had MR. Someone that has MR isn't going to leave him with the magical tools at hand that will lead to his undoing. That's a Bond villain. He wants to create emergency rations, because presumably their food was lost, but the vis wasn't? I'd be perfectly fine with Creo or Herbam or Animal vis sustaining the players as emergency rations without the need for creating anything. It's just as likely that the vis is lost when the food is lost, though, too.
If you know it was wrong, then why did you state it? Half of this thread is countering the incorrect statements about the direction that this goes in.
This is an interpretation of RAW, and not at all unreasonable. And my point is that it is total risk or no risk, with very little in between. No magus is going to try and cast a ritual (willingly or at least in full contemplation of the risks) in a stressful situation.