ReVi range and target off the spell

[callen]

@RafaelB

Which statement? I said an item is analogous to a magus keeping concentration, and that MtDS uses something different... albeit there are indeed, more similarities than I first assumed.

The magus is the one with concentration. The item is something other than the magus. The item maintains it for the magus. This is not the same as the magus maintaining it themself. It is Hermetic magic maintaining it for the magus. But, as I said, you stepped away from that contradiction and started looking for an alternative.

@RafaelB

Can you point me to this discussion? My reading on that part of MuVi was always the opposite: you can generally target spells with R: Touch, except for MuVi where you can only do so if it's your spell.

I can find it later. Basically, MuVi cannot work at all with normal targeting rules. He said we have to blur the lines for MuVi to work at all.

@RafaelB

The way it's written implies that you cannot touch a spell being cast by another magus, not spells in general. I found nothing else in the core book that seems to impose a limit on which range can target a spell.

That would be this statement:

You cannot touch the spell itself.

Pretty explicit, no? That statement is attached to the paragraph on both your own spells and others' spells. You can't touch your spell, but you count as touching it. There is also nothing that restricts this to MuVi.

@RafaelB

Well, here we reach a weird place. By your reasoning we can't really use Mentem spells with R:Touch since you can't physically touch the mind.

Not at all. You're making a huge leap to mistakingly state what my reasoning is. A person's mind is a part of the person. Repeatedly the rules show that you can touch an object to affect part of it. But a spell on a person is not part of that person. Its effect may change a part or the whole of a person, which is a different thing than the spell itself.

@RafaelB

If spells really can't be touched at all, the discussion is moot, of course.

It's explicit that they cannot be touched. But for your own spell, Touch is considered sufficient for MuVi.

@RafaelB

I didn't step back, I just like to discuss one thing at a time. We will come back to this later. ; ]
But I agree that I was making assumptions that might not be true.

I meant by "stepped back" that you were no longer insisting on this, recognizing you were making an assumption that might not be true. You seem to agree with me since you just stated this yourself explicitly.

---

Here is the key to coming up with a consistent framework for it. These must be valid:

• You cannot touch a spell - explicit core statement. (This may be broken if you give a spell substance through Animae Magic, but Animae Magic is already a special exception.)
• Touching someone who counts as touching a spell is insufficient for Touch - otherwise more Range than Touch isn't necessary for someone else's spell.
• Maintaining the Demanding Spell works at Touch - It's R: Touch in core.

Additionally we know:

• For at least MuVi you are considered to be touching your own spell. This may or may not apply to other TeFo combos. (Edit: Technically it does, but we're not sure for how long a spell is considered your own vs having departed from you in some sense.) I state it here as a reminder that using it to solve the problem could be one of the most consistent ways to make things work (Edit: especially with some other "your own" or similar language).

If a framework doesn't work for those requirements, it's invalid. Mine holds so far.

Then you want to examine this next, which must also be true:

• Suppressing the Wizard's Handiwork works at Touch - It's R: Touch in core.

If a framework doesn't work for this as well, it's invalid. Mine still works here since the spell at least works for Concentration spells. But mine is a little ugly here, as I think this is probably supposed to work on non-Concentration spells and I haven't generalized my framework that far yet.

[RafaelB (Rafael Bessoni)]

@callen

You cannot touch the spell itself.

Pretty explicit, no?

Of course not. You can't take this phrase out of context and expect it to make sense. "The spell" refers to "another magus's casting". It's plain English. If this was meant to be "you can't target any kind of spell at R:Touch" it would say "you can't touch A spell". And it wouldn't be stated on the rules for MuVi, but elsewhere in the corebook.

General rules for Touch belong to p.111. General rules for the form of Vim are presented in p.156. Neither of these specify you can't touch a spell.

The MuVi box specifies that for MuVi spells you can't touch a spell being cast by another magus, and that you can target your own spells at R: Touch while they are being cast. It doesn't even say you can't use R:Touch at another magus spell after it was cast (which is irrelevant for MuVi because MuVi simply can't affect a spell after it was cast, but is relevant for any other technique).

I have other points of contention in regards to what you said above, but unless this point is clarified the discussion can't really go forward.

[callen]

@RafaelB

Of course not. You can't take this phrase out of context and expect it to make sense. "The spell" refers to "another magus's casting". It's plain English. If this was meant to be "you can't target any kind of spell at R:Touch" it would say "you can't touch A spell".

"The spell" also works in just plain English.

Restated for clarity: As you said, You can't take this phrase out of context and expect it to make sense. That second sentence is not specifically attached to only one piece of the prior sentence. If you want that, you write the own spell sentence, then you write a separate sentence for another's spell and you state this attached only to the second, or you do something similar. Here it is attached to the sentence about both yours and the other's.

Also, they're not saying you can touch your own spell. The say Touch is sufficient. What's actually stated is that, while you cannot touch your own spell, you're allowed to use Touch anyway. The is part of where MuVi is given some lattitude (and apparently ReVi since Touch is there, too).

@RafaelB

And it wouldn't be stated on the rules for MuVi, but elsewhere in the corebook.

By this reasoning you rule out people making applicable notes when the realize something or making additional notes later. If we just look at vis use and Longevity Rituals, where it was explained in a later book rather than being done by errata, we know for a fact this is not how ArM5 was written. We don't even have to look that far; it was done with a whole bunch of things in the core book. Would it have been nice to have listed it under the Vim stuff before going into Creo Vim, right when we're reading about Individuals? Definitely. Maybe under Touch itself? That'd be good, too. But using our preference in a way is is known ArM5 doesn't follow to show something just doesn't work.

@RafaelB

that you can target your own spells at R: Touch while they are being cast.

And now you should realized that you have contradicted fundamental rules of the game to make your point. You can never cast a spell on your own spell while it is being cast. You cast your spell on a spell that will be created in the future. This is where MuVi has to become more permissive with targets. MuVi doesn't work at all on your own spells using only the rules for the other TeFo combos. Here Touch is allowed on something you cannot touch but you will be magically connected to soon.

[RafaelB (Rafael Bessoni)]

@callen

You cast your spell on a spell that will be created in the future. This is where MuVi has to become more permissive with targets.

With this I agree. This is were MuVi is more permissive. It makes allowances on the rules for Target, not the rules for Range (which it restricts).

Everything else, I can only say that at this point it seems you are purposefully choosing how to read and interpret my words. Unless you (or anyone else, really) can point to an actual rule that support your claim, I won't be entertaining you anymore. Thanks for the discussion, it was enlightening all the same.

[Ouroboros]

@callen

Also, they're not saying you can touch your own spell. The say Touch is sufficient. What's actually stated is that, while you cannot touch your own spell, you're allowed to use Touch anyway.

I think that's because "Touch" here is not actually the act of touching stuff but the name of a magical range which is not actually touching, but so close to get the name. Think of any R: Touch Corpus spell: you can cast it with gloves targeting someone under several layers of armor, clothing, fur or whatever. You aren't really touching the target's skin, but still the spell works. Happens also in other ranges, in less obvious ways. It's magic. Of course it don't make sense if you look at it close enough!

@RafaelB

@callen

You cast your spell on a spell that will be created in the future. This is where MuVi has to become more permissive with targets.

With this I agree. This is were MuVi is more permissive. It makes allowances on the rules for Target, not the rules for Range (which it restricts).

That have itched inside my skull for ages: targeting something that doesn't exist yet seems odd indeed. Such a spell in any other Form would fail and I don't see why Vi should have a special pass.

So what if it doesn't? What if what a magus considers R: Touch T: Ind spells aimed to the non-existing future spell are actually R: Personal T: Part spells that target the part of his own magic which, on the next round, he will use to cast a spell? Do you see any show-stopper there? Because I'm liking it: dropping one magnitude in R and increasing it T keeps all spells at the same level using the same guidelines.

[The_Fixer]

IIRC, the reasoning is that your MuVi spell extands a little into the next turn.
So, something like you create a spell matrix, through which you cast the spell to be, and it exits it modified.

This would imply that you'd need to penetrate for R: Personal spells, but whatever.

[Ouroboros]

Why would you need to penetrate? R: Personal spells don't need to, as R: Touch spells used on the caster do, because they run inside the Parma.

About the extra duration I don't think that's a particular case for MuVi: Momentary duration spells here and there actually use durations that range from an instant to something longer than a round. I also have to force myself to remember that the D: Momentary duration of MuVi spells is nominal and have to cover the duration of the modified spell, because I'm always forgetting that. But the point is that the rules explictly say that the duration of the MuVi spell must cover the duration of the modified spell. For Momentary spells that's odd, but not because of MuVi, but because of the duration itself, having that vague actual range.

It's not the duration what bothers me, but the not-yet-existing target.

[Ouroboros]

I keep on thinking what changing MuVi so it targets "magical energies" with R: Personal and T: Part would imply. I think a magus could then actually target another magus' spells, rising the range and if he where knowing what spell the other magus is planning to cast. I'm not sure if that would be such a huge boost to MuVi to unbalance stuff beyond sense, but I like the idea of a Vim speciallist being able to alter other magi spells.

[ErikT]

@Ouroboros

Why would you need to penetrate? R: Personal spells don't need to, as R: Touch spells used on the caster do, because they run inside the Parma.

About the extra duration I don't think that's a particular case for MuVi: Momentary duration spells here and there actually use durations that range from an instant to something longer than a round. I also have to force myself to remember that the D: Momentary duration of MuVi spells is nominal and have to cover the duration of the modified spell, because I'm always forgetting that. But the point is that the rules explictly say that the duration of the MuVi spell must cover the duration of the modified spell. For Momentary spells that's odd, but not because of MuVi, but because of the duration itself, having that vague actual range.

It's not the duration what bothers me, but the not-yet-existing target.

The rules for duration of MuVi spells was errataed quite a while ago.
Current rules say that the duration of the MuVi spells must last for the casting of the spell to be modified. Momentary is enough for normal formulaic spells, but for rituals you need a longer duration, like D:Sun

[Ouroboros]

Wonderful news! Computing the final level of these spells, or trying to reverse engineer them from character sheets to check them, is a nightmare.

Then again it is not the duration what bothers me anyway.

[The_Fixer]

@Ouroboros

Why would you need to penetrate? R: Personal spells don't need to, as R: Touch spells used on the caster do, because they run inside the Parma.

Because, under that view, since a Personal spell is cast "inside" the parma, your energy matrix would also need to be "inside" it, thus the need to penetrate.

As I said, whatever, this was just a way to visualize it, forget this!!! This will just make things more confusing!

[callen]

@RafaelB

It makes allowances on the rules for Target, not the rules for Range (which it restricts).

It explicitly allows you to use Touch on the spell you explicitly cannot touch. In other cases you still have to make contact (yes, gloves, clothes, etc.), except for in the Familiar Bond.

@Ouroboros

That have itched inside my skull for ages: targeting something that doesn't exist yet seems odd indeed. Such a spell in any other Form would fail and I don't see why Vi should have a special pass.

Simple answer: because David said that is how it will work so that it does work as intended.

@Ouroboros

Do you see any show-stopper there?

How about commonly auto-failing rituals if you decide to use Wizard's Vigil? That's because it's so hard to suppress your MR while doing anything else, and if the caster must be affected, then others need get through the caster's MR.

@Ouroboros

It's not the duration what bothers me, but the not-yet-existing target.

The issue was that if the spell can't already exist and you can't cast two spells at the same time. So you must be able to cast the MuVi before the spell it targets exists. Yes, I get why you like targeting the caster.