ReVi tricky fellah

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I should start out by admitting I always have issues with Rego Vim. Hell most of the Art of Vim I avoid because somehow I just don't understand it. I perfectly understand the story mechanic of what it does and I grasp what the actual affects are of the magic. What I do not understand is the actual construction of the spells.

Essentially the example spells are useless for trying to explain what the "general" base is supposed to be and what level spells that the effect controls. I admit it is my own failing to take the leap beyond what is shown in the book but here I will explain.

Maintain the Demanding Spell. Seems easy enough. The example says it is base effect, with +1 for Touch, and +1 for Diam. So easily enough you make the base effect 4 and so the resulting spell is 10. So now you have a level 10 Demanding Spell which according to text says it will work on a level 10 spell or less.

So my understanding of this is that no matter what the base effect is, it is the actual finished level of the spell that determines the magnitude of a spell that it can control. So why bother at all with such low level Range and Duration? If they are going to boost the finished affect then why not simply go all out. For example:

Maintain the Demanding spell level 20
base 2, R: Sight, D: Moon
(+3 for Sight +3 for Moon)

So now the spell can affect in general most every 20th level spell in sight range and will maintain it for a moon duration.

So basically you simply get the bumps of extended range and duration by halving the base effect and get double the levels of what spells would be affected? This reading seems to basically not make sense. Why would you ever sacrifice an ideally longer range and duration unless it was absolutely necessary for a specific spell?

I have already come up with various reasons you would want the spell to be voice or touch or diameter, but my point is that the "base effect" has no influence at all except to raise or lower the final spell level?

I guess that is my singular issue which if solved I can then move on from this question which has bugged me for half a decade. Does base effect have ANY influence at all on the spell except to contribute to the final spell level? Making the spell level the ONLY factor that determines which secondary spells that can be affected by the Rego Vim?

If this is convoluted I am sorry, I will try to reword it if I am not being clear.

2

That's where you're wrong - the base effect determines what spell level it can affect.

A base 4 "Maintaining the Demandin Spell" affects level 10 spells because its guideline is "level + 2 magnitudes" - the magnitudes for Range and Duration are just on top of that effect. So a general "Maintaining the Demanding Spell" with Touch Range and Sun Duration affects spells up to its level minus 5 (one magnitude), because it has to compensate for the extra Duration magnitude.

Edit: This goes for every Vim effect - the extra magnitudes in the guidelines often only serve to allow for a standard range and duration (for example two bonus magnitudes on might strippers to have a general "Demon's Eternal Oblivion" at Voice Range).

3

ReVi (and all vim spells) only get into trouble at low levels, where the '+x magnitudes' stuff crosses the level 5 boundary.

But basically Toa has it on the head: the final level you can cast is derived from the base effect. So all of the following spells affect cast spells of level 10 or lower.

The only gotcha to watch for is when dealing with vim spells where the target spell level is 10 or less. This is because the 'level + x magnitudes' stuff starts running into either convergence anomalies (e.g. maintaining own spell vs maintaining someone else's), or you start hitting base 0.

We house-ruled that to be valid, a spell must have a base of at least 1.

4

So the thinking I had that the base effect is what determines the level of spells that you can affect is right. If the base is 4 then you add the two magnitudes and you can affect level 10 spells. If the base is 30, then you can affect level 40 spells. The plus two magnitudes are not added to the actual spell level, but rather the level of the base effect, to determine what targeted spells can be maintained.

I will show the spells and let me see if I understand it correctly.

Maintain Demanding level 10

base 4, R: Touch (+1), D: Diam (+1), T: Ind

Affects any level 10 conc spell.

Maintain Demanding level 15

base 5, R: Touch (+1), D: Diam (+1), T: Ind

Affects any level 15 conc spell.

Maintain Demanding level 25

base 15, R: Touch (+1), D: Diam (+1), T: Ind

Affects any level 25 conc spell.

Now we change parameters of the spell.

Maintain Demanding Long Term level 20

base 4, R: Touch (+1), D: Moon (+3), T: Ind

Affects any level 10 conc spell sustaining them for Moon duration.

Maintain Demanding level 25

base 5, R: Touch (+1), D: Moon (+3), T: Ind

Affects level 15 conc spell for Moon duration?

Maintain Demanding level 35

base 15, R: Touch (+1), D: Moon (+3), T: Ind

Affects any level 25 conc spell for Moon duration?

It seems like such a tedious topic but thanks for the help.

5

All of those examples look correct to me.

6

Seconded.

7

... and thirded.

8

Ah good.

I am slowly after a decade of playing, curing my Vim illiteracy.

Thank you for the help

9

General spells and guidelines can apparently be a tricky thing to grasp. I mistook the meaning of them back when I first started playing 4th ed, even though I believed I had read the rules and understood them, and even as I had originally started reading 2nd ed back when it was new. Note that Penetration was equal to Casting Total+Pen ability back then, not subtracting spell level as with 5th ed.
So I had Perdo Mentem Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit, back then you needed to exceed twice the spirit's Might with spell level+stress die to banish it, nothing in between. I took 'General' as spell level to mean the actual spell cast was what I rolled as Casting Total. I was quickly corrected and set it at a fixed level.
So I can fully understand any confuision