Ritual Creo Spells

Actaully I am asking becuase I hate that feeling of remembering something which I can't prove. I thought I remembered an exception to P114 but I was wrong , again. Oh well

the thing is that the restrictions on formulaic and spontaneous spells on p. 114 do not mention anything about permanent creation spells. The limit of creation (p.80) indicates that you have to use vis to create permanent things, not that this has to be done via a ritual spell.

In the last 12 years I have completely forgotten the relevance of this discussion, 12 years is a long time for a reply. I thought at first someone else had posted a question from my account until I realised my last post here was a quarter of my lifetime ago

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I was thinking about this subject from a different perspective- the concept of whether you can create something improvisationally, and from the rules I believe you can...

See "Durations" on p112 - "Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as any other thing of that type." That makes it clear permanent creation is a ritual Creo spell.

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It states what ritual creo spells do, it does not say that an improvised spell can not. That is ot what I would call clear, especially when there is a section specifically on what spontaneous and formulaic spells can and cannot do that does not mention this.
In theory a spontaneous ceremonial spell which spends vis as though a ritual spell could have the same effect without violating any of these rules.

I think your logic is dubious there. Unless we are going to end up with a huge list of rules and special cases then the interpretation has to be the simplest. The rules specifically call out permenant creation as a ritual effect and every spell available is a ritual spell so only ritual magic can permenantly create something.
Spontaneous magic uses exactly the same effects as none ritual magic elsewhere so there is no reason to give it extra abilities. To me it seems that RAI is that to create permenantly vis is needed and hence ritual magic.
In previous editions none ritual magic could create things but in all cases to do so permenantly cost vis. I certainly will not be allowing permenant creation without ritual magic unless one of my very creative players comes up with a better arguement than this one

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The problem is the rules specifically or explicitly support any position on this. Admittedly to use vis as a regular spell makes no sense, unless it is just to keep the level under 20, but the question then becomes whether the effect can be improvised or or whether it requires a seasons worth of research to permanently create a small amount of material. As written it is at best a Sg decision. I understand you position if your are a SG, but that does not mean it is RAW, and it certainly doesn't make it somehow complicated or a special exception. It might seem ridiculous to use a pawn of vis to permanently create a cubic pace of stone of the cuff, but that doesn't mean it should be impossible.

There is the critical ArM5 p.112 Durations Momentary: "Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and so cannot be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing spells."
Tmk there is no such statement for D: Momentary Formulaic or Spontaneous spells - and without such a statement, objects created by D: Momentary Formulaic or Spontaneous Creo spells will just disappear after the Duration expires.

To verify this, you can also look up HP p.116 Create a Human Corpse: "This ritual creates a human corpse. The lowest level ritual spell can be is 20." If after many years of ArM5 development there were a level 10 CrCo Formulaic spell creating the same natural human corpse, it should be in this place.

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The reason legal documents end up as massive and unwieldy with intricate sentence structures is to make a document with only one possible interpretation (and mistakes are made here with some frequency). Gaming rulebooks almost never even try to manage this level of definition (Star Fleet Battles and a few other wargames strike me as exceptions) and as a result it is almost always possible to interpret matters in unintended ways if one wishes to .
In my opinion any attempt to rationalise permenant creation without ritual spells is such a deliberate variant interpretation so I consider the requirment of Vis/Ritual to be RAW. If the games you run and play in interpret this differently that is perfectly accaptable, of course I think you are wrong but unless you are one of 4 or 5 people living in Leeds that will never probably never matter.

So why is it not listed on p. 114 under things that spontaneous and formulaic spells cannot do? This specifically calls out that these spells cannot have a year duration, cannot have a boundary target, and cannot be over level 50. How hard would it be to include "cannot permanently create anything" if that is in fact the meaning of the guideline?

Because D: Momentary is described in an unequivocal way: "The spell lasts but a moment and then disspates.".It is an explicit exception from this, that ""Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and so cannot be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing spells."
For a D: Mom spell which is not a Ritual, another such exception is needed to have it create "things that last as any other thing of that type." There is no need to write it all over the book.

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Because the definition on p112 is perfectly clear and does not need repeating. But as I say with rpg's what matters is what works for your group. (Unless playing a living campaign of some sort when central interpretations are vital)

@oneshot you understand that "unequivocal" means it leaves no doubt, not that you believe something and it is therefore right? Because I do doubt your reading, ergo it is not unequivocal.

:laughing:

Well, you can Rego worms into existence. So there are some cases of permanent creation without rituals.

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Well, that's not 'creation', its transformation; like turning a block of wood into a carved statuette.

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On the other hand you can make a plant produce fruit without a ritual

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But that’s not creating, it’s accelerating a natural proces.

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which is a process of creation. Hermeticism might like nice neat boundaries on the forms but the world in general disagrees.
Witness the "dead plant material is transported as terram" in TME, while working dead wood as a rehe craft magic is ReHe... of course that is about differing idea of what forms mean and backwards compatibility, but still, this stuff gets messy.